I do criticize the destructive policies of the Watchtower organization, especially where they undermine kindness and caring toward those who are non-JWs or former JWs – and even their own people (especially women, and most heartbreaking to me, children).

That is a very different thing than attacking JWs themselves, who mostly mean well and often sacrifice quite a bit for what they believe is right. The Watchtower organization asks potential converts to examine the beliefs, the behaviors, and the fruits of the spirit regarding their own religious traditions, so I think it’s fair enough to demand the same kind of assessment toward the organization, too. There are always false prophets. Love God, and hold fast to what is fine.

Take care, and may the Spirit be with you.

“Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t tell you where Cain’s wife came from; what day the sun was created; why the year 1914; whatever happened to the year 1975? All these questions have answers. Very simple ones at that.” – Not sure they are “simple” answers, exactly, but I’m aware that JWs think they have answers to these questions. If you see them in this order anywhere else, they are most likely parroting me. These were questions that I had as a child, and was never satisfied with the answers I received. With the exception of the 1914 question (which is inherent in the 1975 question) these come from my “Advice to Recovering JWs” page. That particular bit was written in 1998. I’ve reused them in the blog, I think, but if so I’m quoting myself.

As for the numbers question, I linked to another page from the same authority. You can Google it to get a sense for the range of numbers, but I would have to say that even under the page you’ve linked, you’ll need to do some addition. 1,000 isn’t accurate even for this low-ball estimate.

Eric Frost (1900-1987) was the composer of Fest steht (Stand Fast), which was reworked in English as Forward, You Witnesses. He composed the song in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin in 1942. This “kingdom song” expresses a militant stand against persecution, a sense of being in the end times, and a “firm and determined” confidence in the strong-heartedness of the faithful. But what else did Frost do?

“Of the eight German Watchtower district servants (the highest level in the Watchtower hierarchy in the national branch), August Fehst was arrested by the Gestapo, and he then betrayed Erich Frost. In response to his betrayal by Fehst, Frost reportedly gave the Gestapo the names of the remaining seven district servants (Otto Dauth, Albert Wandres, Fred Meier, Walter Friese, Arthur Nawroth, Heinrich Ditschi, Karl Siebeneichler who died in Sachsenhausen). According to the Gestapo document Haftbuch Nr. 292, Gestapo Berlin, Dienststelle II B 2, no torture was used on Frost; his anger at Fehst was evidently sufficient for him to give the Gestapo the information they wanted. After this he spent a short time in Sachsenhausen, and then was moved to the German-occupied British Channel Island of Alderney until the war ended when he resumed his duties as the Watchtower branch chief under a new set of district servants.” –From “The Watchtower’s Nazi Conflicts: A History of Watchtower Cowardliness and Witness Perseverance,” by Jerry Bergman (JW Research Journal, Jan.-June, 1999) Online article posted here. He talks a bit about the numbers question, too – at least in terms of the numbers reported by the Watchtower organization.

The details of Frost’s story can be found in other places as well – in German and English. Here are a couple:

Interactive Bible
ICLNET.org

As for the questions you offered to answer, I think I posed pretty easy ones. I’m just looking for your honest answers. You don’t have to answer them if you don’t want to, since they were posed more for your own sake than for any need of mine.

I believe the Bible is the word of God (although perhaps not the only word of God). However, I don’t believe that the changing interpretations of the biblical collection from a small group of self-appointed spokesmen in Brooklyn represents the word, or the will, of God. So it’s completely up to you whether or not you choose to continue some sort of engagement here.

I’m not arguing with you because I have some need to be right, but I’m sure going to answer back when someone says some of the things that have been said here. I grew up as a JW and left over issues of unkindness and injustice, so maybe we have more in common than you think. I’ve had a lot of years of study and dialogue with others and just simply years of putting things into perspective – I’m in my 40’s. I’ll admit that I have become less patient over the years with people who make multiple negative posts on my blog. There have been a few that were truly tiresome.

I haven’t really picked up any sense that you were interested in having any sort of authentic dialogue that would build to anything useful. If you look back over your comments on the different posts, I think you might be able to see where I might get that impression.

This is what I mean about conflicting information (albeit, trivial): http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005394
(Sorry, I haven’t been able to figure out how to put the HERE links on yet. Lol.)

Information like this is what would lead a person to do more research. Your research doesn’t count less than mine. The reason I question it is because a lot of the points you bring forth are things that seem to be parroted from other sites. For example, the point that Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t tell you where Cain’s wife came from; what day the sun was created; why the year 1914; whatever happened to the year 1975? All these questions have answers. Very simple ones at that.

I didn’t address the Erich Frost comment because, simply, I don’t read German. I can’t take the word of what a web site says until I can read the letters for myself. This also means that I can’t dispute what is said. So therefore, I choose to remain silent until I can do further research.

The Watchtower being friendly, I don’t really see a problem with this stance. The problem with most people is that they assume that being friendly is agreeing or coordinating. There’s a guy at my work who despises my points of views. He no longer engages in philosophical conversations with me because he believes I’m too self-righteous and I don’t believe in reality. The truth is, I never judged him. Nor did I become ‘unfriendly’ towards him simply because he didn’t agree with my beliefs. I don’t have to like somebody to be cordial or friendly towards them. I don’t hang out with him outside of work. I lend him money when he doesn’t have lunch. I drove him to and from work when his car broke down. I believe people’s treatment towards others speak louder than words. It’s easy to dismiss someone’s ideals simply because they don’t coincide with yours. It’s just the way things are. It’s no reason to judge. If the Watchtower was doing Germany’s bidding, I would question that. If they’re just being polite and friendly? I don’t know. If it went against the commandments of the Bible, then yes. I don’t see how it did, though.

The coinage of Genocide was not simply tied to Hitler. Genocide had been around throughout history. However, it was not until Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide and the prosecution of perpetrators of the Holocaust at the Nuremberg trials that the international community agreed to the CPPCG which defined the crime of genocide under international law. That’s according to Wikipedia.com. And the official definition for it didn’t come about until 1948.

I’m more than willing to hash out religious ideas all day long. However, at some point, the realization of truth has to set in. The Bible is written one way. I understand that some texts are more difficult than others, but it doesn’t mean that two different ways are both correct. You believe in love and free will. So do I. You believe God will save all whom put faith in Him. So do I. You don’t believe the flood was literal. I disagree. If you believe the Bible is the word of God, then we have some common ground. Something we can build from. If you don’t, then no amount of theorizing or discussion will get us anywhere. If you really want the answers to those two questions then I will address them in my next post. (Once I can research them in the Bible.) If you just want to criticize me and take the stand that no matter what I say, you’re going to be right, then we have nothing further to discuss. It’s all up to you. Until then, have a great day.

You might not have made the claim personally that only JWs are to be saved, but it is the underground view among JWs (and hidden by the “theocratic war strategy,” witnessed by my experience, the experience of others, and admitted by JWs in the comments on this site).

In another comment, your said, “I am not a Jehovah’s Witness – as of currently. But I disagree with a lot of what is being said against. I was raised a JW for most of my life. I left the organization when I was a teenager (doing stupid things, i.e. sex before marriage, experimenting with drugs, etc.) then went off to join the military. I completed my 4 years and am now back and about to start a family. I spent roughly 8 years out of the organization and, in that time, have learned many valuable life lessons.”

I applaud you. You must have come under some fire for your military service, not to mention your “experimentations.” I wonder how old you are?

I would just say that many in the Watchtower organization at the time were Germanic. And note from your own words – the Watchtower org was “outstandingly friendly to Germany.” You don’t have any problem with the stance of neutrality?

Is “preachwork” a new word used by JWs? I’ve never heard it before.

Numbers regarding the Holocaust are always under contestation. But according to your own source – which has as its authority the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, an estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons (Jehovah’s Witnesses: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum).

It wouldn’t have mattered what Rutherford or anyone else said. As long as JWs wouldn’t “Heil Hitler” or serve in the military, they would be carted off. Why would it be any different for them than anyone else?

I notice that you didn’t address the Eric Frost question. Do you know that he wrote the song “Forward You Witnesses”?

Do you really believe that the coinage of the word genocide just came from Hitler taking serious eugenics programs just that little step too far?

Why would you put the word “research” in scare quotes? Does my research count less than yours?
I am a scholar, and I don’t do research just to support my ideological preferences, despite your projections to that effect, so you can leave your self-righteousness about method at the door, if you please.

I notice that you didn’t answer my two questions. Didn’t you offer to do just that?

As far as your little excerpts about the letter to Hitler. Well, I’m not entirely sure you’ve read the actual letter, have you? It’s about 5 pages long and, I would assume, that the message was pretty obvious. First off, the comment about their view being harmonious was grossly misinterpreted. For the sake of clarity, I’ll highlight the key points.

“At the convention, it was stated that there are no opposing views in the relationship between German Bible Students and the National Government of the German Reich, but that, to the contrary, respecting the PURELY RELIGIOUS and APOLITICAL goals and objectives of the Bible Students, IT CAN BE SAID that these are in complete harmony with the SIMILAR goals of the National Government of the German Reich.”

Remember, Hitler was a Catholic. Rutherford, at no point, claimed to share the same visions of control and suppression as Hitler. He was simply appealing to Hitler’s claim that his movement was in ‘accordance to the will of God’. With that statement, Rutherford was saying that the Watchtower Society was only interested in doing the same thing. To perform in accordance to the will of God. The mention of methods was not necessary since Rutherford knew that the agendas were in opposition and would only lead to further conflict with Hitler. Hitler became Chancelor in 1934. The eugenics program did not come into effect into 1938. Meaning that, although many groups were being persecuted, it wasn’t occuring to such a rapid and monumental extent as it was after that year. Hence the respectful and cordial tone of the letter. After all, Rutherford wrote a letter to the very person persecuting the JW’s. Wouldn’t be beneficial to make him upset. Any other tone would be disrespectful and give Hitler more reason to persecute them. (The eugenics program was being arduously studied in the US by several reputable organizations. Including Brown University, Carnegie, and several practicing states. Due to an overturn of the Supreme Court, several ‘ideas’ were pitched to Germany to further the study. Hitler took those ideas a step too far which led to coining the term genocide.)

As you might recall from your ‘research’, Hans Dollinger worked with Rutherford, at the time. He coordinated efforts with the Watchtower to give the Jehovah’s Witnesses a ‘voice’ during the oppression. He was the one that pushed for a cessation in the preaching work and passing of literature to appease the German government. As you might recall, Rutherford accused him of ‘lying’ on behalf of the Witnesses and disasociated him from the Watchtower. Shortly after, Dollinger denied any and all ties to the Witnesses.

Hitler proclaimed that all of his work was done to appease God. In the respects of the Christian beliefs, Rutherord said the goals were harmonious. In response to the quoting of the Reich publication, the aim of Rutherford, to show that there was no threat to Hitler’s government, was for Hitler to appoint neutral officials to ‘monitor’ the congregation and publications to prove that it was in accordance with the statutes of the Christian faith as outlined in Hitler’s own publications. (Since it was their own publication, it couldn’t be disputed or accused.) He even went as far as stating that the Jehovah’s Witnesses posed no threat to the government by putting the example:

“The Brooklyn administration and the Watch Tower Society is and in the past has been outstandingly friendly to Germany. For this reason, the president of the Society and 7 members of its Boards of Directors in the United States were sentenced to 80 years imprisonment because the president refused to use two magazines published by him in the United States for war propaganda against Germany.”

This, in no way stated allegiance to Germany or Hitler. All this said was that the accusations that the Watch Tower were intent on opposing the German government were false. The JW’s were simply reaffirming their stance of neutrality by refusing to take sides. (The Jehovah’s Witnesses have never and will never promote war, irrespective of the country or human government.) However, Hitler did not respond to the letter and persecution continued. It was at that point that Rutherford motioned for a second address to the issue and threatened Hitler that if he didn’t allow the JW’s to preach in accordance with God’s word, that he was going to send a message out, all over the world, informing them of Hitler’s methods and persecution. Hitler, again, refused to respond. Preachwork continued at full force.

In short, taken in segments, I could see where the confusion would arise. However, with a little more thorough research, it becomes aparent that the aims was to address concerns and accussations posed by Hitler’s government, to establish neutrality and quell concerns of an uprise, and to attempt to maintain an open avenue for preach work.

Hitler’s background as a Catholic was never challenged. In fact, he possesed veto power over who the Pope can declare bishop in countries such as Germany, Italy and Spain. He was never excommunicated from the Catholic faith.That’s not to say that the religion supported his movement. But they didn’t contest it, either. Hitler combined his Catholic belief with the beliefs of Martin Luther. He believed humans were created but he also believed in evolution. Hence, the reason he believed that the Aryan race were the only true descendants of Adam and Eve. Which is why he was bent on destroying everyone else.

As for the number, here’s a report from ushmm.org (aka the Holocaust Encyclopaedia):

“The number of Jehovah’s Witnesses who died in concentration camps and prisons during the Nazi era is estimated at 1,000 Germans and 400 from other countries, including about 90 Austrians and 120 Dutch. (The non-German Jehovah’s Witnesses suffered a considerably higher percentage of deaths than their German co-religionists.) In addition, about 250 German Jehovah’s Witnesses were executed — mostly after being tried and convicted by military tribunals — for refusing to serve in the German military.”

I do thank you for the correction on the ‘marks’, however. Hitler did have many different markings for all the groups of prisoners to identify their ‘class’. I completely forgot about that until you mentioned it.

Anyways, it has become aparent that the quest for knowledge is not based upon the information. It’s based on a ‘template’ of ideals in which the information is measured with. If it doesn’t coincide with a prior belief, it must not be true. I personally, don’t like to take that approach. It makes me more susceptible to bias and hearsay information. So, I will leave you to your own devices. However, in the future, take your advice. Weigh any information you receive objectively. Cross reference it and use logic to answer those questions that don’t make sense. I don’t know what the official position of the Watch Tower stands at. However, I know I’m not blind. And the works don’t seem to betray Bible principles. So, my opinion remains unchanged. I do take your comment of earlier as a compliment, though. I haven’t been associated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses in over 10 years. It seems that the more I learn and understand about the Bible, the more I sound like them. Interesting, isn’t it?

And yes, the Watchtower Society leadership did do some pretty strange things in their relationship with Hitler, despite the bravery and faith of those Jehovah’s Witnesses who endured under adversity in the camps. That makes it all the more despicable. See here, and here, and here, and here, and here. Just a few examples, but Google can help you find more, if you’re willing to face it.
Here’s a small sample:

“At the convention, it was stated that there are no opposing views in the relationship between German Bible Students and the National Government of the German Reich, but that, to the contrary, respecting the purely religious and apolitical goals and objectives of the Bible Students, it can be said that these are in complete harmony with the similar goals of the National Government of the German Reich.”

Complete harmony of goals… nice.

Or how about this one?

“It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.”

And they say they aren’t anti-Semitic…

Take a particular look at the career of Erich Frost for an outstanding example of a Watchtower traitor to those brave and faithful JWs, and remember that he was still in his position after the war.

I guess you don’t count the badge that the Jews had to wear? It was the first (and most important) mandatory identification that was made. From your comments, I don’t suppose that you have happened to notice that Hitler did not actually succeed in “exterminating” them.

Do you really think that JWs made Hitler panic? That’s actually funny.

Your figures are optimistic. In all, about 10,000 (not 11,000) Jehovah’s Witnesses were imprisoned in concentration camps. Of these, approximately 2,500 to 5,000 died, not 1,000. They were imprisoned because they did not salute flags, or raise their arms to “Heil Hitler,” or serve in the German army. Jehovah’s Witnesses were therefore banned by national law in April 1935. Only those JWS who continued to ignore the ban on their activities were arrested and sent to prisons and concentration camps.

It’s interesting that you can’t admit of any other explanation for the survival of many of the JWs in the camps than the backing of Jehovah himself. In your travels, did you happen to notice that other political dissidents – as well as dissenting clergy – that were held in the camps? Dachau was a camp for political prisoners for 12 years.

I do not underestimate the faith of JWs in the camps, but remember that there were a lot of other people there: Jews, Roma (”Gypsies”), political dissidents, homosexuals, vagrants, prostitutes, alcoholics, and others such as Christian Poles and other Slavs (especially Ukrainians and Byelorussians). Many others were forcibly sterilized, such as persons with physical or mental disabilities and the offspring of German mothers and the African soldiers brought in during the French occupation. But in your eyes, God is only with Jehovah’s Witnesses, which seems incredibly heartless. How any compassionate person who loves God really think that? How can you justify it? Really.

Thanks for your concern, but there is no need to be sad for me. I’m doing fine.

I’m moved by your offer to collaborate on putting some things in perspective. I rarely engage in bickering about biblical interpretation, but there are many questions to be asked. How about just two basic ones?

1) Where do you find the biblical authority for the belief that God will destroy everyone but Jehovah’s Witnesses?
2) What was the content of the message of “good news” that Jesus brought humanity?

Forgive me if they seem too elementary, but I am asking for you to really think about it rather than simply parroting a set of unrelated but strung-together verses from the Watchtower Magazine.

How things change. I remember when the two major foci of JW paranoia were the Catholic Church and the United Nations. There are some paranoid aspects to your other points that might better be left alone, so I’ll pass on that discussion. I suspect it is all about shoring up the belief in the “End of Days” (which helps with the enlargement of the Watchtower’s free salesforce). But I do agree with you that the detention centers and private jails being built are very distressing – I actually posted on that some time ago.

I do not “have faith in” or worship government, but rather I believe that it is each citizen’s responsibility to speak up about problems and solutions, to insist on our government’s transparency and accountability to us, and to help to elect the best representatives that we possibly can because our government is meant to be “of the people by the people and for the people.”