Jehovah’s Witnesses Claiming to Follow the Christ

Jehovah’s Witnesses Claiming to Follow the Christ

According to an article in the Cherry Hill N.J. Courier-Post, Jehovah’s Witnesses aim to “debunk myths” about their faith by adopting the topic “Follow the Christ!” at the District Conventions. The article mentions only the one convention being held in Reading, Pa., but of course the program is an identical thing everywhere, and it’s not as though it’s an actual “conference” type of convention at which one might expect discussions, debates, new scholarship, pastoral support, and the like. It’s reinforcement and rah-rah. The JW assemblies were fun because it was a chance to meet other JWS, and it had a celebratory air for that reason. Now it seems they are using it as a preaching tool. They must have gleaned some tips from Falwell, et al. Too bad for the young ones seeking a mate – they’ll have to sort through all the non-JWs that attend.

Jehovah’s Witnesses in South Jersey are knocking on doors and inviting their neighbors to attend the convention, which will explain how following Bible principles that Christ promoted can help people improve their family life, draw closer to God and gain everlasting life, said Mark Weaver, a spokesman for the Reading conventions.

Here’s a funny bit: “There also will be a public talk debating the question: Who are the real followers of Christ?” Debating? Hee-hee. Not likely. Any guesses on who they will claim as the “real” followers?

Last year, the district convention was all about the “Deliverance at Hand” – meaning that the loving God is about to kill off most of the people on the planet. So this year, it’s a PR move. They want to fight the perception that “their denomination isn’t a Christian religion.”

Why fight a perception? That’s like saying that you should undermine an insight. They should at least say they are fighting an “inaccurate impression.”

I think that people have the perception that Jehovah’s Witnesses (I call them Watchtowerites) aren’t Christian because of different and larger issues than simply their non-celebration of Christmas and Easter, which is the only reason given in the article (Even mainstream Christians are somewhat aware of the history of the development of these two holidays). No, there is a much larger set of issues. Grace, forgiveness, compassion… for starters.

They miss Jesus’ whole point (and in this they are not alone, of course), and so this topic is very pertinent to their problem. Unfortunately, they won’t address it at all. It takes a very narrow focus to try to claim that JWs follow Christ, and many things must be unspoken in order for them to attempt to do so.

Since comments on the article were allowed, here is the one I posted:

In some ways, JWs follow Jesus. They preach, like the disciples. They accept persecution, as did the early Christians. They will die for their beliefs – even as the beliefs change. They believe that the Christ has a mediating function in prayer, although they do not think it through but merely invoke the name.

However, I don’t think that anyone who looks more closely would believe that they are Christians. They are more like Watchtowerites.

They believe that Jesus, as Archangel Michael, very shortly will act as God’s hand to destroy “this satanic system of things,” including most of the people. They do not have a communion, only a yearly memorial of the last supper, during which only those who feel that they are of the 144,000 (destined to rule as kings over the earth) may partake of the bread and wine. The “emblems” are actually passed over every person present. In the years that I was a JW, I never witnessed any of them eat or drink in remembrance of Jesus. The ceremony is a reminder that they are not part of the communion. But hey, most of them would rather live on paradise earth anyway (once all the pesky bones have been cleaned up).

It seems to me that they have become more rule-bound and less able to make Christian decisions in my lifetime – but I am surely biased on that since I receive letters and questions from people who have been hurt by their myriad and often senseless cruelties. In judging comments from other former JWs, remember that they have cause for anger.

In their most destructive aspects, JWs not only divide families and cause paranoia and isolationism, but also protect predators – not only through their infamous “two-witness” requirement, but also by discouraging their members to deal with worldly (satanic) powers such as the police. Although they have furthered civil rights legislation in the US, they do not offer such democratic structures within their system. There is no discussion or debate, only endless repetitions of the “guidance” of the governing body in Brooklyn.

What they produce is a free sales force, driven by self-righteousness and fear, not compassion. And it is exploitative, too, since members often end up paying for the publications themselves. For a population that has been discouraged from higher education, and whose primary investment might be a few of those (strategic blending-in camouflage) three-piece suits, this is a hardship. They are kept busy and isolated – if members have questions of faith, they are labeled rather than mentored.

The rank and file JW is a good “sheep” – submissive, obedient. At least you can say that they are doing what they believe God wants of them – sometimes at great sacrifice. But the leadership, for all they call themselves “slaves,” are all-powerful to members. Some would even say that they have put themselves in the God-position. And they hide it under anonymity; you will look in vain for writer’s credits in any of their publications.

Local elders, who hold power over each JW’s life, have no training in languages, biblical interpretation, or even basic pastoral counseling. But there is a huge investment in their legal team. Recently, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Corporations succeeded in settling multiple cases about child abuse and pedophilia out of court – with a gag order.

If this is a Christian group, then the Christian message of reconciliation between God and humanity has been warped beyond all recognition. They have no concept of grace whatsoever. They are neither forgiving nor kind. Their only concept of service to others is to offer them the “good news” of how people might be able to survive the approaching destruction from their loving God. That’s it. The only community they are concerned about is their own.

Like some other fringe groups that have risen in influence, they are of the sort that would be more than happy to throw the first stone. They have completely missed the message.

I still don’t salute the flag – I think it’s a very creepy nationalistic ritual, but in most other ways, I have found that there are higher spiritual standards than the ones they can offer.

The recovering JWs that do best are those who have curiosity, like to read, and can locate their sense of humor. And, if you leave in freedom, you do have another advantage. You have learned to recognize the methods of control, and you have one step ahead in resisting them from other directions.

For those who are being shunned by their families and the people they thought were their life-long friends – know that you are not alone! Hang in there – it gets better.


75 thoughts on “Jehovah’s Witnesses Claiming to Follow the Christ

  1. I’m sorry, but I have to put all these religious zealots – whatever they call their faith – in the same category: morons. But hey, that’s just me.

  2. It’s interesting….that when a person studies the bible with us..Jehovah’s Witnesses…they study to make a concious decision…as to what they are learning is Truth or not.

    No one is forced…it is up to the indiviual. You can not join…the Kingdom Hall like the Churches do…You must become…one of Jehovah’s Witness..and the first step is as John 17:3 tells us..”taking in knowledge” acquire this knowledge is by means of a personal Bible study guided by someone who has already grasped the material. Just as Noah endeavored to impart knowledge to his contemporaries, Jehovah’s Witnesses are willing to come to your home to consider the Bible with you. accepted what you learned over the truth..a way of life..not working independent of whom Jesus has appointed as “stars” over the congregation.

    It seems that when you wanted things YOUR WAY..and surely you were counsel…you became haughty…and now…you made a 360 degree Satan did…The first one to fall away from the true worship of Jehovah was Satan the Devil.

    Therefore …you unquestionably began to have a lack of faith through doubt. (Heb. 3:12)

    Thus the one who doubts to the point of becoming an apostate sets himself up as a judge. He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the “faithful and discreet slave,” through whom he has learned the best part, if not all that he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes. He develops a spirit of independence, and becomes “proud in heart . . . something detestable to Jehovah.” (Prov. 16:5) .

    As to the effects of the course you have taken, the results is you immediately lose the joy you once had!

    After having yielded to such works of the flesh as “enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects,” apostates often fall victim to other fleshly works such as “drunken bouts,” “loose conduct” and “fornication.” (Gal. 5:19-21)

    Peter warns us against those who “look down on lordship” by despising theocratic order, who “speak abusively” of those entrusted with responsibility within the Christian congregation, and so ‘abandon the straight path.’ He says that their “final conditions have become worse for them than the first.” —Read carefully 2 Peter, chapter 2.

    One of the basic causes of apostasy is a lack of faith through destructive doubt.

    The apostate makes himself a decider of what is true and what is false, of what is “good and bad” in the way of spiritual food. He becomes presumptuous.—Compare Genesis 2:17; 3:1-7.

    Therefore…you have falling away from the faith, “the sin that easily entangles us!”

  3. ummm…no.. that’s not how it went. But… nice try, and I like your references. They are, as usual, taken completely out of context and dreadfully misapplied, but there’s a nice … almost hypnotic … flow. I think you meant to say “a 180-degree” turn (not 360-degree) but I’ll assume you know the difference and just consider it a kind of Freudian slip.

    My real studies took place elsewhere than at the Kingdom Hall. It was when I left that I began to actually take in knowledge based on reputable scholarship, and on the centuries-old conversations of thinkers, mystics, and diverse faith communities.

    It’s always a little strange to me to hear a follower of the Watchtower Society diagnose presumption, pride, or lack of humility in others.

    Here… pick up the mirror, my dear.

    You are claiming that only a relatively recent group, one that morphed into a publishing corporation, could possibly be the best spiritual teacher and guide. JWs believe that only the Governing Body has the wisdom and spirit – as God’s channel and representative on the planet – to have and even to embody the “TRUTH.” Amazing that only they would hold the ultimate spiritual insights, and that their followers would be forbidden from seeking higher studies and training except through their publications.

    Without any conversation with “fellow Christians,” this corporation has the answers that all other thinkers and communities lack. This corporation knows the truth better than anyone else. Why? Because God has chosen this group – and no other – to represent his wishes for the planet and all of his true followers. And anyone who disagrees with that is, well, presumptuous.

    I have not fallen away from “the” faith at all. It’s just that “your” faith is limited to an unthinking submission to worldly (and I believe false) guides.

    Prohibitions on learning and discussion within congregations would not have to be so enforced if they were really confident.

    I believe that the development of a relationship with God (and with other people) is a lifelong learning process. To be prohibited from asking questions and from seeking is anti-spiritual, especially for someone like me. We all have different gifts and talents.

    Faith that cannot be questioned or doubted or discussed cannot be built upon. It is a weak faith that is afraid to examine itself. (Even Paul thought so.) You have no problem with that idea when you attempt to bring others into the Jehovah’s Witnesses from other faiths. So, it’s kind of odd, isn’t it, that you forbid discussions that would lead to deeper understanding.

    JWs used to argue that people didn’t need men as mediators. The Watchtower publications, and people out in service, quite often “spoke abusively” of other christian leaders. It was said that they set themselves between God and his people. I remember a particular animosity toward the Pope and the Catholic Church, for example. Isn’t the Watchtower even worse than that? Catholicism has history (and sometimes quite nice architecture) on its side. Other groups have missionaries, you know. Pretty much all over the world. You aren’t the only ones to go in service. But do you offer any other kind of service? Do you care for the sick or the poor, for example? Only if they are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and often not even then. You’ve missed some central insights, some important biblical guidance.

    For Jehovah’s Witnesses, only the Watchtower publications (I include their translations of the biblical books) can be the authoritative source of guidance. People are not allowed to follow their individual calling, pursue their God-given talents and interests and (for all you know) their purpose for being here.

    You are certainly free to choose to follow and submit to the control of the group of men in New York if you so choose, but please spare me the charges of presumption and so forth when this group claims that only they are the true christians. I think it is presumptuous for anyone to make such a claim to ultimate truth, although so many do. It creates a lot of strife in the world. There is a huge difference between humility and docility. If the Watchtower Society changed doctrines again, and you all picked up arms, I would be a lot more worried than I am. As it is, my concern is for the various psychologically and spiritually wounded. Telling children who have been sexually abused that they shouldn’t report it to the police, to “let Jehovah take care of it,” or even to punish the child for trying to get help – all of that is profoundly anti-christian, not to mention unethical, unkind and (judging from the gag orders and settlements) probably illegal. Surely there are JWs who would like to discuss these things.

    From my perspective, JWs have much more in common with the way Pharisees of Jesus’ time are portrayed – rule-bound, lacking kindness, generosity or love, adhering to the letter of law, but not to the spirit. Was Jesus submissive to them? No, he spoke with authority even at a young age. Do JWs submit to saluting the flag? No, because they don’t believe it is proper to do so. Well, I don’t believe that it is appropriate to put all one’s faith in a group of men (or a set of its publications).

    Your “new world order” simply doesn’t appeal to me, and I don’t believe that a loving God has very much to do with your “theocratic organization” at all. I’m not even sure that Jesus is a major figure in the faith of JWs; all I ever heard was the repetition of the bad translation of one of God’s biblical names. I really don’t see what the Christ really has to do with much of anything that JWs practice, which lacks even a concept of grace. Without caritas (caring, charity, kindness, love), there can be no claim of indwelling spirit that makes any sense to me at all.

    “Following the Christ”? It’s blatant PR.

    People leave the JWS for many reasons, but suppose I go along with the “doubting leads to judgment and apostasy” scenario.

    Sometimes confronting one’s doubts is a very healthy thing and can lead to a rebirth of spirit, one that comes from authenticity – from the heart. If elders were able to provide real spiritual guidance when someone was in a spiritual crisis, wouldn’t that be a good thing? Wouldn’t that be better than cutting them off from everyone they know? Just a thought.

    No-one is forced to go spiraling into self-destructive behaviors just because that’s what JWs are told is supposed to happen when they leave (or are booted out). It is true that many do go through such a phase, however. It’s not very nice to plant such things in people’s heads. Whatever would Jesus say to that?

  4. My initial reaction to “snowhoney” was to reflect on the wonderful/awful creation that blogging is. You allow us to participate in your journal, share in your life, enjoy the synergies you create–and open yourself up to attack. You respond well. My observation is that God’s Work & Word, no matter how harsh, always has love in it. I didn’t find any love in snowhoney’s comment.

  5. Notice please…i mentioned that “Jehovah’s Witnesses are willing to COME TO YOUR HOME to consider the Bible with you. That is usually the first step…it is soon afterwards …you are invited to the Kingdom Hall to further yourself in taking in accurate knowlege.

    It does not have to be in your home…where ever it is convinent for you…it could be sitting in a car…a resturant…a mall..but the point is a study of the bible is the first step!

    If you felt that the way Jehovah’s earthly organization was not the right way…you did not have to proceed with your studies. So…obviously you were at one time in agreement with what you were learning…accepting it as truth…and that Jehovah by means of his son Christ Jesus…were using his “annoited brothers’…to care for the congregations.

    It’s sad …when some feel all what they are learning is accurate truth…then later..after being baptized…they get haughty and then begin to BASH JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION.

    No one forced you!! You made a CONCIOUS decision!
    That is why you are “ASKED” questions…rather are you SURE..this is what YOU WANT TO DO!! IT IS YOUR CHOICE…YOUR DECISION… no one else’s!!!

    But know you are bitter..and continue bashing others..about what you feel.

  6. Vance – The lack of love is a general problem, but in this case it could probably be overlooked. After all, this JW thinks that I am comparable to Satan. Former members are considered to be very evil and dangerous (possibly even possessed). Snowhoney is actually quite brave to comment on a blog that has been judged as being written by an apostate.

    Snowhoney – You assume much, and you are in fact quite mistaken. My parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses (my father was an elder). I was brought up as a JW – and I can tell you that for children, being a JW is a whole different kind of matter than it is for adults who choose to convert. I went out in service from the earliest age that I can remember. It wasn’t until I saw better examples of individual and community behavior that I fully realized the many destructive aspects of the Watchtowerites. I was just as self-righteous as you are, and employed many arguments similar to the ones you offer. Without better models, it seemed like the right thing to do.

    I am not bitter about my own experience. I left gradually, and then it took another several years of study and experience to develop a perspective that wasn’t (overly) contaminated by that early training. I was the last to leave in my family, so I wasn’t cut off from them. I was never baptized – by the time I was of an age to consider it, I had witnessed too much cruelty and rigidity to dedicate myself through that organization.

    It wasn’t until I started reading philosophy and theology that I began to see the kinds of questions that could be asked – and the wide range of answers that could be – sometimes very persuasively – argued. Literary theory – especially methods of close reading and interpretation – was incredibly helpful in that regard. I also had teachers and colleagues with whom to argue and discuss various possibilities. Many of them were far more qualified than I ever was, at least with regard to biblical hermeneutics. For one thing, I never had the expertise that you really need in the original languages of the texts.

    There is some incredibly well-done scholarship on everything from textual interpretation to social analysis, but JWs don’t read it. The whole history of interpretation is a blind spot for JWs. They aren’t usually aware of the historical changes in their leadership, its governance, or its changing policies and doctrines (not to mention its significant financial assets). JWs are kept in the dark about how the governing body decides on an interpretation of any given text. God’s “channel” just mysteriously has the answers. Any changes are attributed to the growing “light” as we approach the end times. Their studies use verses piecemeal, without contextual or cultural or linguistic understanding. They can’t even tell you why one particular verse is to be literally interpreted, and another metaphorically or symbolically so. Of course, many people aren’t interested in these kinds of things, but Jehovah’s Witnesses used to be “International Bible Students.”

    The path of faith for me is a mix of complementary concerns, rather than a set of predigested answers. The drive to learn to ask better questions has always been my primary mode. Compassion-based contextual ethics is another facet, and then I suppose (for lack of a better word) a kind of mysticism or the ec-static experience of belonging to – and within – the cosmos. There are other aspects, but I always come back to these three.

    My conscious decision in spiritual freedom was to reject – very slowly and gradually – what I found to be lacking, and often forbidden, in all three of these areas among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    JWs themselves encourage potential converts to look at their tradition, and to judge it, for the sake of higher truth. They just do not expect that they would be held to a similar standard.

    I remember the methods for “bringing someone into the truth.” It’s actually kind of funny to think of any of us as having “grasped” the Bible, and imparting it to others. We just headlined beliefs, and used the verses given to us in such publications as the “Truth That Leads to Eternal Life.” There was a whole process of welcome and then gradual control. I remember the methods quite well, and the art of recognition that developed out of that experience has been a gift to me.

    My experience, because of my own situation and because of my love of reading and my sense of humor, was much much easier than the experiences of many of the other ex-JWs. The organization has broken or severely damaged lives, psyches, and spirits of the many, but I am not among them. The narratives I have read and heard are often quite heartbreaking. Even so, the issues were sufficiently powerful and long-lasting that I feel an obligation to help others who may need support or advice.

    That is why I try to be the friend I wished I’d had myself. That is why I try to model navigational alternatives for recovering Jehovah’s Witnesses (some of that may also be helpful to exiting members of other authoritarian groups as well). That is why I try to introduce a different kind of perspective, one that might enable people to thrive and to find their own center, balance and direction. And that is why I offer strategies to people who wish to navigate difficult issues with current JWs (Why won’t she come to the funeral? Why does my wife sit outside in the car while her family visits inside our house with our child? What can I do? What can I say?) I think JWs might be shocked if they actually saw the kinds of advice I tend to offer. Contextual ethics, you see, also demands that the beliefs of others are taken into account in any given situation. Many of the people that contact me are not comfortable with sharing their questions and concerns, so I don’t blog on a lot of it. There is a wide range – from life-threatening crisis situations (in which I use every means possible to convince the person that it is all right to seek professional help) to questions on somewhat trivial, but sometimes interesting points (why aren’t my JW neighbor’s kids allowed to join the scouts?).

    It is for the sake of the people who have been damaged and hurt (and even lost their lives) that I criticize practices and behaviors of the Watchtower Society. As I say often in this blog, the rank and file JW is simply trying to do what they think God wants of him or her – often at personal sacrifice. My arguments are against the leadership that has so badly served them.

  7. I see that growing up with Christian parents…you never made the Truth your own. You allow your own doubts…as to rather Jehovah God was using Jehovah’s Witness Organization as the channel of which he approves. begin to search elsewhere…because of never having developed love for the True God..Jehovah!

    Yet..out of love for his creatures…Jehovah has given us all free will. It was the exercising of your free will…to choose..rather you want to serve Jehovah or not. And you choose not too!

    That’s all good and fine…but I can’t understand…why don’t you just go on ….form your own church…and teach what you feel is true…relying on your own reasonings …philosophies of men.

    You say you want to help others.. and you ” feel an obligation to help others who may need support or advice.”

    But…what I hear from your own words…is hate…disgruntled…hate for Jehovah Witnesses and boils down to hate for Jehovah …his Witnesses ….and all he purposes….all you are doing…is lashing Jehovah and his Organization. And since…you keep the fire burning …to those…who may want to learn more…but because they come across your web-site…it sows…doubt…into their minds…and that is what you want.

    You rationalize your web-site…saying it is too help others…yet…growing up with Christian parents …at some point in your life … were..’quickly shaken from your reason ‘…and since you yourself said you like to read…therefore…’through an inspired expression or through a verbal message’… it effected you to the degree of not making the Truth your own.

    Since you never having cultivated that friendship with the Creator…so…in essences…the love of Jehovah God…never existed. If it had…your faith..and Jehovah’s holy spirit …would have worked with you…but you…have done the opposite…you are working against the Creator.

    We live in an era in which religious untruth abounds. As foretold by the apostle Paul under divine inspiration, many people in these “last days” have a form of godly devotion but prove false to its power. Some resist the truth, being “completely corrupted in mind.” Furthermore, “wicked men and impostors . . . advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.” Though such people are always learning, they never come to “an accurate knowledge of truth.” (2 Timothy 3:1, 5, 7, 8, 13)

    Because we are born imperfect, as Romans 5:12 shows, God’s Word cautions us not to trust in ourselves either. Jeremiah 17:9 says: “The heart is more treacherous than anything else.” Thus, Proverbs 28:26 declares: “He that is trusting in his own heart is stupid, but he that is walking in wisdom is the one that will escape.”

    At Jeremiah 10:23, we read the words of the inspired prophet: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step” … You…Virus head…choose to “DIRECT YOUR STEP”…Independence.

    How loving is it of you…dear Virushead…to steer others…away from the Truth…just because you have made a decision to use your own imperfect reasonings?

    If you are more loving then Jehovah or Jehovah’s Witnesses…then let others…find out what the Bible really teaches….direct them to Jehovah’s they can have the opportunity you had…BUT REJECTED!

    But…I will not be going back and forth…on this topic… your decision is your own….as stated …Each of us will render an account for himself to God.”—ROMANS 14:12.

  8. How would you have any idea of the depth of my love for God, or what has driven me in my spiritual seeking? Do you think that I have studied comparative religion, mythology, theology and ethics, philosophy, mysticism, spiritual autobiography and fiction just for the purpose of “bashing” JWs?

    Why do you only see the options as being in compliance with the Watchtower Society, being evil, or starting one’s own religion? Even if those are the only options that the Watchtower presents to you (ad nauseum), can you really deny having had any encounters with caring people who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses? Have you never been touched by a kind word?

    Had it been all about my personal ego (pride, haughtiness, etc) and my desire for power over others, I assure you that I never would have submitted myself to many, many years of education – not to mention questioning, and various kinds of personal exploration. I never would have sacrificed anything for the sake of pursuing a deeper understanding. I would have had a greater will to power, and I might have started right away. I might have started my own religion, as you said, although to be honest, that was pretty much unthinkable to me at the time (since women can’t be leaders).

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has constructed an unpaid salesforce – a terrific MLM meme scheme – to spread their influence. They are successful in keeping people uneducated and easily controlled, while feeding them a bunch of propaganda intended to keep them in line, afraid to ask questions. They are able to divide JWs from their families and communities, and pump up the pressure with a constant threat of their immanent destruction should they stray from the somewhat arbitrary but strictly enforced rules. But what does any of this have to do with God?

    What you strongly resist grasping is the simple fact that my criticism of the Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses in no way represents a rejection of God, spiritual insights, or spirit. To the contrary, I never felt that there was an authentic spiritual connection until after I had left that organization.

    The god of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is a very small-minded, controlling, insecure, and even hateful god. Honestly, how could anyone love him? (I’ve actually written a poem on this topic – My God, Your God). Fortunately for humanity, I don’t think you’re talking about the God of Love at all.

    Since God doesn’t speak to anyone here, all we have are the reasonings of men and women, the Watchtower Society included. To have the humility to admit that we simply don’t have all the answers is no weakness. We do, however, have centuries of people who have struggled with the questions. To turn your back on all of that out of loyalty to a corporation who has imposed itself as the authority is exactly the kind of thing that Jesus and others warned against. I believe that the Watchtower Society is an idol, a false prophet, and it undermines authentic spiritual growth.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses put the governing body of the Watchtower Society in the god-position, believing that they have got the Truth (capital T) as some sort of possession. That is not the nature of Truth. If you believe in God, then praying for guidance, practicing compassion and kindness as best you can, pursuing spiritual questions, and so forth are at least good starting places to get people walking on their own path. The path is narrow because it is individual. Why would God want us to be unthinking, uncaring robot followers of a New York corporation?

    JWs have this idea that they are superior to everyone else. Just because people do not accept that the Watchtower is the holder of God’s authoritative truth, that doesn’t mean that they are wicked. And just because some are Jehovah’s Witnesses, that doesn’t mean that they are good. People are just a little more complicated than that.

    How loving it is for the Watchtower Society to destroy people’s lives on the basis of their own (very) imperfect reasonings?

    How does it bring you closer to God to refuse to accept the spiritual responsibility of your soul? How does it show love to reject the gift of the infinitely diverse human spirit and its manifestations through each individual? You say that the spirit works through us – and I think it does – but what practices allow that to happen? The Watchtower forbids so many. The kind of life that is possible in such a totalitarian atmosphere as the community of Jehovah’s Witnesses is very limited. It is no kindness to offer people the illusion that they have only a choice between this kind of life, so bereft of love and insight and compassion, and destruction or complete corruption.

    To the extent that the Watchtower Society has disrupted the bonds of family and community, and damaged the psycho-spiritual growth and thriving of its members, they could be described as blood-guilty. JWs like to use that word. It means that the more authority and influence you have over others, the more responsibility you have not to turn them away from the spirit of love. If you turn others from the spirit from a position of leadership, God holds you more accountable because you were in a position of trust.

    If you want to find out what the Bible teaches, there are thousands of resources, many of which are far more reputable than the “scholarship” or interpretive methods of the Watchtower Society. I cannot in good conscience steer anyone toward the Watchtower as the best place to go to learn about biblical texts, especially if it means a prohibition on more credible resources. It would be unethical for me to do so, knowing what I know. But anyone who is curious can go to the official website. It is somewhat misleading in its presentation, but it is an interesting place to explore.

    Independent thinking shouldn’t be against anyone’s religion. You cannot grow and develop discernment without it.

    If people don’t want to read the information that is available on this topic, here or elsewhere, they can choose not to. I applaud your bravery in choosing to read and to comment – I know that you are not supposed to read things like this.

    In any case, my blog is not about hate. I don’t hate any Jehovah’s Witnesses, but rather I am critical of the Watchtower leadership particularly in terms of some of the practices that they impose and encourage. There is in fact a significant set of differences between hateful speech and criticism, even if – like some others in the larger global community – you have been taught not to see the difference. Reasonable people can disagree with one another, and sometimes discussions between people who disagree can be very productive. This is not an example of a conversation where either one of us will convince the other to our own point of view. I don’t feel, however, that it has been entirely without merit or benefit. Thank you.

  9. All what you say…bears no releavance. It stills comes down to ONLY ONE THING…John 17:3..”taking in knowledge.”. followed by ‘ACCEPTANCE..or …REJECTION!!

    Your parents instructed you according to Dueternomy 6:6 & 7 there is says.. “And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart;  and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up.

    No doubt they taught you about Jehovah..and what Jehovah requires of you. Still..YOU REJECTED Jehovah’s loving kindness. It wouldn’t matter if Jesus annointed brothers…called the principle publication The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom…or given it another name…YOU STILL WOULD REJECT…Jehovah’s Truth!!

    You are critical of the ones that Jehovah by means of Christ Jesus…’ appointed over his domestics’-Matthew 24:45.

    God’s Word the Bible long ago indicated that training and discipline to make us act as we should would affect the heart, the seat of motive and the source of actions. Proverbs 22:6, 15 states: “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

    Your heart desired something else…you set it towards a wrong course. The heart is the seat of affection and motivation and those who love Jehovah from the heart will taste and eat and relish the menu of work provided by him, not finding it burdensome: “This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.” 1John 5:3.

    It seems that you can’t limit your statement to one topic…you go from one thing to another…but that comes from your searching…..of which the Bible cautions Christians to avoid “philosophy and empty deception,” “idle talk,” “empty speeches,” “falsely called ‘knowledge,”” “false stories,” and “strange teachings.”—Col. 2:8; 1 Tim. 1:6; 6:20; 2 Tim. 4:4; Heb. 13:9. that end of YOUR searching….you have REJECTED…Jehovah’s arrangement and the authority he has put in place.

    Just before his ascension to heaven, Jesus informed his disciples: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18)

    As Head of his congregation, not only did Jesus keep a watchful eye on his anointed footstep followers on earth but, since the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost 33 C.E., he has also used them as a channel of truth, as a “faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24:45-47; Acts 2:1-36)

    For this reason Paul counsels: “Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.” Since these faithful men follow Jesus’ steps closely, it is certainly the course of wisdom to imitate their faith.

    And still…it comes down to ONE THING….You reject Jehovah God’s arrangement.

    No matter how you try to twist matters…with your WORDLY WISDOM…not only misleading yourself…relishing in your own thinking ..but …you also are misleading…others as well…You REJECT Jehovah!

    “The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God,” the Bible says. (1 Corinthians 3:19)

    But you are not alone…in your REJECTION of Jehovah…you are in great company…with Kings and Princes of the earth. Here in Psalms 2:1-5 ..

    1. Why have the nations been in tumult
    And the national groups themselves kept muttering an empty thing?

     2 The kings of earth take their stand
    And high officials themselves have massed together as one
    Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,

    3 [Saying:] “Let us tear their bands apart
    And cast their cords away from us!”

     4 The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh;
    Jehovah himself will hold them in derision.

     5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger
    And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them,

    And that’s the bottom line!

  10. You’ve been trained very well to associate the Watchtower Society with God – almost as though they were synonymous, but the Watchtower Society is not God. The Watchtower Society, a relatively recent organization, has no special status. I do not believe that it has been appointed, annointed, or invested with God’s authority.

    It comes down to one thing … I reject the governing body. I do not believe that the Watchtower organization is “Jehovah God’s arrangement.” I do not believe that they speak for God. I do not believe that their guidance is just or kind or even Christian.

    The Watchtower Society does not represent spiritual wisdom. They do not even measure up to your maligned “worldly wisdom.”

    I do not reject God at all. I do not reject Jesus. I do not reject the kingdom within each of us. I do not reject spiritual insight or compassionate practice or service.

    And I feel very sorry that JWs miss out on their own spiritual callings because of an artificially imposed set of fears and controls by a group that claims authority that they do not have (any more than any other religious group’s leadership has).

    “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:15-18)

    “Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'” (Matthew 15:7-9)

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:21-23)

    “Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!” (James 2:12-13)

  11. From the beginning of my first comment concerning you..YES …I had it wrong as to you being baptized and leaving Jehovah’s Orgainization…but surly you reason …..the different ways you say it….puttiing your own twist on Truth….trying to still CONVINCE YOURSELF ….you REJECTED….Jehovah’s truth…due to a lack of faith through doubt. (Heb. 3:12) In turn ….the eventuality of it is… do not accept anything from Jehovah’s Organization.

    Nothing has changed as to how you reason…

    You were not brought up as a Jehovah’s Witness!

    You were “brought up” in a family of whom your parents are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    As a child of Jehovah’s Witness parents…that is what you were…A CHILD…but NEVER …. one of Jehovah’s Witnesses…because you NEVER accepted the Truth…and therefore..YOU….were never BAPTIZED!!

    So..your readers..of whom you say …you are trying to help…are misguided…because YOU WERE NEVER ONE OF JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES!!! You were still a child…..(with Witness parents)….then a adolescent…(with Witness parents)…..then a adult…A WORLDLY PERSON!….

    In essences….you have ALWAYS BEEN …A WORLDLY PERSON…loving the things of the world…even as a child…you longed for independence from your parents way of worshipping Jehovah God and his Earthly Organization. And so…you made it happen!

    You not accepting what you were learning from your parents as the truth…so therefore…since you never accepted Jehovah’s truth…then I can not consider you a apostate.

    The reason I say this is..because of what the greek word apostasy means!

    This term in Greek (a·po·sta·si′a) comes from the verb a·phi′ste·mi, literally meaning “stand away from.” The noun has the sense of “desertion, abandonment or rebellion.”

    In the Christian Greek Scriptures it is used primarily with regard to religious defection; a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith.

    Since you never cultivated faith in what you were taught…you never believed it to be the Truth…nor you did not abandon Jehovah…you were NEVER a professed Christian …..because you NEVER PROFESSED IT AS TRUTH!

    So…how can you help someone who were once Witnesses…and they then rebelled..and refuse to repent….when you never WALKED THAT WALK ..of BEING one of Jehovah’s Witnesses yourself?? YOU CAN’T!!!

    You only went to the meetings with your Witness parents!! (you were not a Witness of Jehovah)

    You only had a Family study with your Witness parents! (you were not a Witness of Jehovah)

    You only went out in the Ministry…because your Witness parents were following Christ command..inculcating Jehovah’s truth into you….and you as a child…were with them! (but you were not a Witness of Jehovah)

    You commented at the meetings as encouragement from your Witness parents. (but you were not a Witness of Jehovah)

    So..when sincere individuals do research on our beliefs, they may stumble across your propaganda. But in reality….YOU WERE NEVER one of Jehovah’s Witnesses…you have always been a person of the world…seeking worldly ideals…and YOU FOUND IT!

    You may have been among Jehovah’s people…and even if you had some years…growing up with Witness parents…and around Jehovah’s Witnesses….therefore.. since you have never had faith in…nor professed to be…or was baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witness…for the most part…you developed a ‘hardening of your heart’..and the love of Jehovah…YOU never let penetrate!!




  12. So now you’re spinning a fantasy that I must always have really been “worldly” and not a JW at all.

    You’re grasping at straws. You’re really going to explain to me the story of my own life? Give me a break.

    Why is it so important for you to create a story about me? You don’t know anything about me.
    You describe various scenarios that you seem to need to believe, but you’re really way off.

    I witnessed, believe me. I stood up in homeroom every year and explained to the whole class why I didn’t salute the flag. I told everyone exactly why I didn’t celebrate Christmas, and couldn’t go to the Valentine Party, and couldn’t accept birthday presents, and all of the rest of it. I was very proud of myself, and it was very comforting, for a time, to feel as though I had all the answers.

    I felt justified in my faith when I was “persecuted” for Jehovah’s sake. I was unusually articulate in explaining my beliefs to others, and from a very young age. I was thoroughly indoctrinated. I was completely convinced that I would never get my driver’s license, for example, because Armageddon would be here before then. I was a fanatic, a Pharisee, just like you.

    I was not encouraged to comment at any of the meetings. I was a girl. I think the only time my parents encouraged me to answer was at a home book study when I was something like five years old and the answer to the question was “Jehovah God.”

    Anyway, comments of any kind were only allowed under carefully controlled conditions – at the book study and the Watchtower study – and those were only simple repetitions of paragraphs that had just that moment been read aloud. Even answering in your own words was cause for whispering disapproval.

    I got the spankings that everybody else got, for being less than perfect. The basement of the Kingdom Hall is still a place of terror for some. Spare the rod and spoil the child.

    Still, that all seemed normal to me. The first time I remember registering that JWs weren’t always that nice, was when my father (an elder) got reprimanded by a district overseer for not chastising a woman when a couple of her (several) children fell asleep at the Thursday night meeting. I wondered how she got them there at all – they were poor, and the husband was hardly ever there. The meeting went for two hours, from 8-10 pm, and it seemed uncharitable to judge her or to expect more from her than she was already doing.

    After my parents got divorced, and both left the JWs (for different reasons), I went alone to meetings, and out in service. I was the last one to leave. I felt guilty for talking to my own parents. I got to deal with horrible gossip about me, when I had done none of the things of which I was accused.

    But I was one of the lucky ones. I left under my steam, and for a much better life.

    In every way that mattered experientially, I was a JW. The dunking is only the formal dedication. When it came time to do that, I was just starting to realize that this might not be the right path. I deferred, and eventually went to college. And that was the end of that, except it took years for me to disentangle my mind from a lot of really destructive kinds of thinking.

    Yes, I can offer some help – and some strategies – to people.

    But the fact that I wasn’t baptized means that I’m technically not an apostate – which is good for you (if anyone happens to see this, and tattles on you).

  13. Snowbunny, since you are in this thread, there are a few things that I need/want to say.

    You do not know a person’s level of commitment with Jehovah and Jesus are at. TO sit up here and to tell her about how she rejected them is absurd.

    Now, here is my thing, and I think VirusHead will hit on it later. My main concern is that JWs deny their Salvation, and do it Gleefully, citing “Those who endure to the end will be saved” and ” Faith without works is dead”. saying that Salvation is of works based on 2 scripture, and Ignoring the other 150 plus scripture, including Romans 10:8-15. In part “Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved”.

    Now on the WT, Virus Head has actually looked at all the WT material, dating back to the 1800s I assume. I have as well. Many JWs are in disbelief when they read the early watchtowers that Predict Armegeddon, NOT the Invisable coming of Christ, in 1914….which was the 3rd or 4th Failed Armageddon prediction at the time, The WTS is a Prophet, etc.

    SNowbunny, if you A, are in the Truth, B scripturally sound and C, a Strong Christian like you want to be known as…….don’t let the WTS limit you on what materials you can or cant read. A person of Great Faith can ready anything and not be shaken.

    P.S. Snowbunny, if you want to be Blown Away, Google 587 (or 586) BC Fall of Jerusalem. Then Google 607 BC Fall of Jerusalem. I think Virushead knows where Im going with this

  14. Yes, Zone, I know where you are going. There are many such starting points, as you seem to know.

    I’ve just found it almost pointless to get into specific textual arguments, at least at the start. From the JW perspective, it just sounds like a crazy person spewing some conspiracy-theory. They are usually much too well-defended on things like that. Anything that doesn’t agree is just from Satan, and that’s the end of the story.

    Basic points like the fruits of the spirit may at least be recalled from some more mature perspective. Maybe it might bother her conscience at a crucial time. Maybe she’d do some kind thing, later, for someone else. Or not. It’s really her decision.

    If there are other JWs, or ex-JWs reading this, here is some advice, and things to read:

    Captives of a Concept (Anatomy of an Illusion) Jehovah Lives in Brooklyn Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses

    The controls have tightened over time:

    “Beware of ‘organization.’ It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others’ consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s Word today.” Watchtower , Sept. 15, 1895, p. 216.

    “We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord’s channel. If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.” Watchtower, April 1, 1920, pp. 100-101.

  15. Listen Virushead…

    You fail to understand!

    Just because you witnessed to school…knew the reason why you didn’t celebrated holidays…etc..etc…etc…

    You “WERE NOT”….thoroughly indoctrinated. WHY?

    Because …

    In order to be considered one of Jehovah’s Witnesses…..YOU MUST BE BAPTIZED!!!

    It is YOU…dear Virushead…that is … spinning a fantasy …saying that …

    You grew up…as a Witness..(…you did not grow up as a Witness) …… you grew up in a family where your “PARENTS WERE WITNESSES!


    Since you were not baptized…that means …YOU NEVER accepted Jehovah’S Truth…

    Lack of faith…doubts…caused you to…go another direction…..

    So Again….Virushead..


    Your Parents were Witnesses…but NOT YOU!

    Rather or not you told others in school…friends..or whatever….

    You only was TAUGHT…from childhood….and believed for a time…..but for the record….


  16. Snowhoney, what on earth is your problem?

    I was out witnessing today, with my church, and ran across a JW just like you, at a Bus Stop, waiting to catch a bus. Holy Spirit told my team leader that I should take this one, and I did…until the lady wanted to start arguing. I stopped talking to her.

    My thing is that you are saying she never accepted Jehovah’s truth? Ain;t no thing like a chicken wing, because you may have just opened a door that you may not have wanted to, but the good Lord may have.

    Do you actually think that you have to be apart of an org. to be apart of the Truth? DO you have to be a Jehovah’s Witness to be apart of the truth? The truth lies within the Bible, not with men, not with the Watchtower. God’s truth can be found in The Gifts of the Spirit, and the Fruits of the Spirit. God’s truth can be found in the scriptures. God’s truth can be found with aiding the Homeless, Hungry, Crack Addicts, and just flat out poor people. God’s truth is not found in a org, its found in what you are doing for Mankind. Spreading the Gospel is nice, but sometimes juts giving a person a 99 cent Jr. bacon Cheeseburger speaks much louder then witnessing, because of you action. God’s Truth basically glows off people, and attracts them to you, not repel.

    Snowhoney, I passed along to Virushead something that no JW has ever been able to refute. One JW had to resort to Name Claiming when he couldn’t fight what I gave him. I hope Virushead post it, if now, I will post in in a reply. Because once you knwo God’s Truth, it will overpower you to the fullest.

  17. Zone – that’s a wonderful comment, thank you. I know what you mean about how spirit can “glow.” Sometimes the most caring and loving people are the ones you might least expect. They don’t trumpet themselves – humility and kindness are the hallmarks for me. Those are the ones that I personally see as most Christlike.

    Your list of bible bits is really interesting. Why not post them yourself? I don’t feel comfortable “going there” because I usually prefer – for a number of reasons – to let others argue about biblical passages and interpretations.

  18. Snowhoney, just take a look at these scriptures. Many JWS have told me that Jesus is not God. If this was true, then explain the following scriptures. Fell free to use teh NWT, especially with the ‘ONLY God’ verses, comeback and discuss.

    God laid the foundations of the earth (Isa 48:13), Jesus laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10);

    God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14, 1Chron 16:33),
    Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12);

    God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22), Jesus (the Lamb) is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22);

    God is the alpha and omega (Rev 1:8),
    Jesus is the alpha and omega (Rev 22:13);

    God is the first and last (Isa 44:6, 48:12), Jesus is the first and last (Rev 22:13);

    God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6), Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13);

    Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21), Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20);

    God is our hope (Ps 71:5), Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:1);

    God is eternal (Deut 33:27), Jesus is eternal (Isa 9:6, Heb 1:10-11);

    God will come with all the holy ones (Zech 14:5), Jesus will come with all the holy ones (1Thess 3:13);

    Only God is our savior (Isa 43:11), Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1);

    God is the creator of the universe (Isa 44:24, Jer 27:5), Jesus is the creator of the universe (Jn 1:3);

    To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Isa 45:22-23), to Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Phil 2:10-11);

    God is the same and his years will have no end (Ps 102:27), Jesus is the same and his years will have no end (Heb 1:12);

    God is immutable (Mal 3:6), Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8);

    God is over all (Ps 97:9), Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31);

    the spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9), the spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6);

    God is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14), Jesus is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8);

    God was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-13), Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mt 26:14-16);

    God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1), Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20);

    God is Mighty God (Isa 10:21), Jesus is Mighty God (Isa 9:6);

    God is Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3), Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14);

    God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22), Jesus is our rock (1 Cor 10:4);

    God is our owner (Isa 54:5), Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4);

    No one can snatch us out of God’s hand (Deut 32:39), no one can snatch us out of Jesus’ hand (Jn 10:28);

    God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3), Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-9);

    God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12), Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12);

    God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12), Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19);

    God’s words will stand forever (Isa 40:8), Jesus’ words will stand forever (Mt 24:35);

    God is the eternal light (Isa 60:19), Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:23);

    God seeks to save the lost (Ezek 34:16), Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10);

    Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1), Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1) even though no man can slave for two masters (Mt 6:24);

    God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1), Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21);

    God is our guide (Ps 48:14), Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79);

    God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2), Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26);

    God is called God (Isa 44:8), Jesus is called God (Isa 9:6, Jn 20:28);

    God is the King of Israel (Isa 44:6), Jesus is the King of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:49).

  19. I am sorry, but I cannot accept the reasoning that because virushead did not accept what she was taught as truth, she has rejected God. This doesn’t make any sense. What if she were raised by skinheads, athiests, Muslims, etc? You would say that she were taught a lie even though her parents taught extremism as truth. You will have to reconsider your defense on this for me. She has obviously researched extensively. Have you done so as well, snowhoney?

  20. I have a relative who is a JW and she has been trying to convert all of her family to be JW by quoting scriptures and promoting their beliefs. Of course, we dialogue back and forth and I do my best in explaining our beliefs as Christians to her as well as our interpretation of scriptures. She is just like any other JW who seems to be well programmed and will not be open to investigating the history of the Watchtower Society, their beliefs and practices. Recently, she sent me pictures of their recent convention themed as “Follow the Christ”. According to her, the convention was uplifting and they learned how imitating Jesus’ life can improve our life. I thought I’d check into what this is all about.

    This led me to this website and had the opportunity to read some of the interesting blogs. I normally don’t leave comments but I feel that I have to on this one.

    First of all, I am glad I found this website as it gave me further insights to JW and will help me in opening the eyes of my relative to the reality of being a JW. Thanks to all of you. Yes, you too Snowhoney.

    I really feel sorry for JWs since their interpretation of the bible is way out of context and is done mostly to support their own beliefs and practices. They don’t know it but they are deceiving many individuals and breaking families. As a Jw, my relative does not attend our birthday celebrations anymore, family reunions on Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. She isolates herself from any Christian liturgies. They believe in a “paradise on earth” and the Watchtower as God’s spokesperson on earth. They only believe what’s written in the bible. I am sorry but I did not find the word “Watchtower Society” in the bible nor did I find the word “Jehovah” in any Christian bible. She gets hurt whenever I speak the truth about their congregation. Yes, truth hurts.

    As far as I know, Christians are people who believe in the Trinitarian God: the Father, the Son Christ as the second person of this Trintiy and the Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians believe. The Truth is Jesus is the God whom the JW calls “Jehovah”. They are one and the same. Sad to say, Jw’s NWT is not a reliable translation of the original scriptures. God became man in the person of Jesus to redeem us and to lead us back to His Kingdom. We see God or “Jehovah” (as JWs would say) in the nature and person of Jesus who is both human and divine. For the benefit of Snowhone, Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus. Zone did an excellent job of demonstrating this based on scriptures. I hope you will open your mind to understanding it.

    Historically, the original writings of the new testament did not contain the name “Jehovah”. Sorry to say but there really is no such name. The word “Jehovah” came from the misinterpretation of the tetragrammaton “YHWH” by a Catholic monk. In the old testament “Yahweh” “I am, who am” is the one true name of God.

    I beleive that the Bible was written by the Apostles inspired by the Holy Spirit. It did not just drop out of the sky. Howver, during the time of the Apostles, they preached but did not have the bible as we have it today. Besides, not everyone know how to read or have access to the sacred scrolls during those time. Scripture can’t be interpreted by Scripture. Only someone who has the authority can explain and interpret Scripture in its right context. Jesus is being God is all-knowing so He made sure His teachings will remain intact. Thus, He founded His one and only Church to be headed by His main Apostle Peter. Thus, preaching was done thru oral and written tradition as taught by Jesus to His Apostles. The Church founded by Christ up to this very day has authority over interpretation of His teachings. To His Church, Jesus gave instructions to preach and baptized everyone (young and old) in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The bible did not exists until hundred of years after the death of the last apostle John. Where did the bible come from and who compiled all its books? As I mentioned earlier, it did not just drop out of the sky. JWs might like to do some research on this as well as on the Watchtower Society if they are allowed to. However, I doubt it.

    The Truth is a person and it is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the Truth & Life. Whoever believes in Him will have eternal life. To follow Christ is to believe in Him, to put Him first in our lives and obey ALL (not just one or a couple of His teachings) that He commands us summed up in the 2 great commands which is Love of God and Love of neighbor rather than self. A follower of Christ must be ready to deny oneself and pick up his/her own cross united with Jesus.

    As Christians, our joy and hope is eternal life with Christ in Heaven. Eye has not seen, nor ears have heard what awaits us there. Heaven is heaven simply because of the presence of Christ. Hell is hell simply because of the absence of Christ.

    Heaven is way better place than a “paradise on earth” without Christ. Without Christ, we are nothing.

    I pray and hope that Snowhoney will have the courage to do a good and unbias research to know more about the real Christ of the bible and when she does, I hope she will pray for me and all of us.

    Make it a bess day!

  21. Tis’ ol I can say is that any ;

    Any god that tells you that he is the one and only

    and any son that tell you that he is the only begotten

    and any religion that says to YOU that they are the
    only true faith .

    Id’ slam the door to their face , and tell them to get
    the blazes out.

    Remember there is no true god, or religion , it’s a lie.

    Praise Darwin !

  22. Zone – I will like to go over the scriptures you quoted, but you took many of them out of context to so call prove the trinity doctrine. But, I could go over just 3.

    (1) Alpha and the Omega – Its true God said he was the Alpha and the Omega, but Jesus never said he was the Alpha and the Omega in the book or Revelation, it was God himself. Conquers are are Sons of the Alpha and the Omega and Jesus called those Sons his brothers. If he was Alpha and the Omega, why would Jesus call him his brothers and not his Sons. Another inconsistent part of the so called “Trinity”. Jesus did say he was the first and the last, but if you read further down those scriptures, he clearly states that he was first from the dead and last to be raised by YHWH himself.

    (2) Saviour – Jesus and God are both saviors for the fact that Jesus gave his life for many people, and that God is the one who gives salvation. For people to get salvation, we have to go through Jesus Christ and to God. Thats why they are both considered saviors

    (2) Eternal – Jesus was called the Eternal father, which is different from a the eternal being. Jesus was called the “Last Adam” (Adam our first Eternal Father) and thats why he is labeled at the Eternal Father, the Father for everlasting life by means of his salvation.

    Heres some things you should consider:
    Father called the only true God (John 17:3) Jesus was never called the true God (unless you want to take 1 John chapter out of context). It also proves that Jesus is referred to as a God, but not a true God.

    Father Greater than him on heaven and on earth (John 14:28)
    Almighty God isn’t less of a being then other.

    Everything is in subjection to God almighty, even Christ (1stCorinthians 15:24-28) Almighty God will never be in Subjection.

    Only the Father knows when the end will come.(Mark 13:32) Does not even talk about the Holy Spirit in this verse.

    This verse disproves of the trinity in so many ways (1Corinthians 8:6) It says “yet for us there is but one God, the Father” it does not say one God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It also says “whom all things came and for whom we live” Means we are all from him.

    “there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” People are all through Jesus Christ (creation, salvation ect.) If Jesus was God Almighty, we wouldn’t be through him, we will be by him.

    I can go on and on how many scriptures disproves of the trinity, but you’re going to ignore them anyway, just like all others who believe it do.

  23. Don’t worry I’m not a Jehovah Witness, but I do think they have the more accurate beliefs out there.

    If you want to compare Churches to Jehovah Witnesses then I think Churches loses by a landslide.

    (1) – 31 False predictions.
    (2) – Female Pastors.
    (3) – Collection plates.
    (4) – ATMs in Churches.
    (5) – Calling out members who do not put out money in the collection plate.
    (6) – Kicks out members who don’t agree with their beliefs (same as Jehovah Witnesses because it is a Bible rule).
    (7) – Shun members who leave the faith (another bible rule).
    (8) – Celebrate Holidays with pagan backgrounds.
    (9) – Jesus was never born in DEC.
    (10) – Christians are fighting their own brothers.
    (11) – Put their hope in men and not God.
    (12) – Submit to world leaders.
    (13) – Pastors beg for money on TV and uses that money to buy big houses.
    (14) – Sell Holy Water.
    (15) – Claim to have healing powers, a act of a false prophet.
    (16) – They do not preach about the Kingdom.
    (17) – They do not preach to people of all nations.
    (18) – They allow their members to live immoral lives.
    (19) – Baptizing children before they can even speak.

    …Hmm I can go on and on. 🙂 I would be a Jehovah Witness but I rather live life without religion.

  24. Roy – Don’t worry, it matters little whether you are a JW or not. To respond:

    (1) – 31 False predictions. Hmmm. Not sure about which church or which predictions you mean, but JWs have a hefty history of false predictions too. See here and here and here and here, for example.
    (2) – Female Pastors. Whew. Right. All JWs are “ministers”, but the female majority has no leadership role so it’s a hollow identification. There are plenty of conservative churches who agree with your perspective (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Southern Baptist Convention, etc.). If we wanted to argue about it, which I don’t, we could analyze the roles of such biblical women as Mary Magdalene, Chloe, Priscilla, Tabitha/Dorcas, Phoebe, Junia, Euodia, Syntyche, and Judith. We could discuss this issue for a long time since I have done substantial research in this area. This doesn’t seem the time or place. One verse, though: Galatians 3:28: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
    (3) – Collection plates. I agree with you on this. The custom arises from the practice of tithing. JWs have said this no longer applies (and although they interpret the blood prohibition to apply to transfusions, they don’t eat kosher – it’s all kind of arbitrary). Of course, remember that JWs have to buy the publications – whether or not they get sufficient donations. That is an exploitative form of collection. There are also voluntary donations (the “collection box” is normally at the back of the Kingdom Hall).
    (4) – ATMs in Churches. Of course, Jesus would be appalled to see money-changing in a house of worship, if that’s what it is. My understanding is that it’s a kind of “giving kiosk” – an updated version of the “collection box.” Keep mind, however, that today’s churches have no “holiest of holies” and bear little resemblance to the holy temple, which was an institution of the Jews that remained intertwined with Jesus.
    (5) – Calling out members who do not put out money in the collection plate. I have not witnessed this practice, but for now I’ll take your word for it. Shaming people for this seems unchristian to me, too. Which churches do this?
    (6) – Kicks out members who don’t agree with their beliefs – well, if you think this is a bad thing, there’s one strike against the JWs. Most other groups have a different process, and less draconian effects, than the JW practice of disfellowshipping. It usually takes a lot more to be excommunicated. JWs can be disfellowshipped for trivial offenses, including simply showing independent thinking – asking too many questions. At that point, their families and friends completely ignore them. Not very loving.
    (7) – Shun members who leave the faith (another bible rule). – The practice of shunning is antithetical to christian love and forgiveness and grace. Organizationally mandated disassociation is abusive and destructive, and is resorted to in the absence of kind counsel and mentors. There is usually a fair bit of scapegoating and hate involved too. Jesus sat down with prostitutes and even tax collectors. Shunning – a control tactic used by tight-knit totalitarian groups – targets apostates, whistleblowers, dissidents, people classified as “sinner” or “traitors” and other people do not comply with the standards of the group. In any case, disfellowshipping was not practiced in its current form by the Watchtower Society until 1952.
    (8) – Celebrate Holidays with pagan backgrounds. I refer you to Colossians 2: 9-17, esp. 16 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” Anyway, I think you’ve got it backwards. Christianity imposed new forms on old traditions (“you will be assimilated”).
    (9) – Jesus was never born in DEC. – Agreed. It was a ploy to take over earlier festivals. Christmas in its current form is a very recent thing. Still, some celebration in winter is very nice, esp if it involves lots of lights, hospitality, and kindness. I’d like to see a resurgence of the “peace on earth, goodwill to all” kind of message anytime…
    (10) – Christians are fighting their own brothers.. Well, is that any worse than fighting a stranger? No one fights worse than family because there is more in common and therefore more to fight about. Is it war you object to? Me too, but there is certainly a lot of war, even God sanctioned war, in the bible. Christians should probably be pacifists. Still, JWs aren’t pacifists so much as they will not be involved in any national role at all, not even voting or running for office.
    (11) – Put their hope in men and not God. – Riiii-iight. I totally agree, and that’s why JWs should not put their idolatrous hope in a publishing corporation in Brooklyn, nor accept it as “God’s organization.”
    (12) – Submit to world leaders. – Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s. It’s an odd construction, though – the idea of “submission.”
    (13) – Pastors beg for money on TV and uses that money to buy big houses. – Completely agree, although that’s basically a right-wing evangelist thing. Nothing about the tv in the bible, no sirree bob. The larger issue is corruption, of course. When’s the last time you heard anybody talking about taking a vow of poverty? On the other hand, if you are claiming that JWs are free from this, you’ve missed the free workforce that produces the publications, not to mention the free salesforce that works the neighborhoods of the world on a regular basis. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract corporations are actually quite wealthy (although not quite so much now that they settled some pedophile cases with huge sums, on condition of a gag order.) Don’t forget about the big house “Beth Sarim” – headquarters for the return of King David and other “princes of the universe” (see Time Magazine, March 1930. See the deed here). “Any person appearing to take possession of said premises, shall first prove and identify themselves to the proper officers of said Society as the person or persons described in Hebrews Chapter eleven and in this deed.” The property was sold in 1950, and the teaching that David and the patriarchs would return was dropped in 1950. Most JWs have no idea about this chapter in their history.
    (14) – Sell Holy Water. – Ooo, that’s really nasty. Where does this happen? To clarify, though. There is no such thing as holy water for JWs, so it is no virtue that they do not sell it. There is also no communion among the membership.
    (15) – Claim to have healing powers, a act of a false prophet. – Jesus was a false prophet?
    (16) – They do not preach about the Kingdom. – I am not aware of any Christian group that does not preach their interpretation of the Kingdom of God. Can you enlighten me?
    (17) – They do not preach to people of all nations. – Hmmm. I don’t think anybody could claim that JWs invented missionary work. Anyway, there are still a couple of nations that even JWs can’t reach. See testimony from a JW on this here.
    (18) – They allow their members to live immoral lives. – This depends on your definition of “immoral.” JWs allow and sanction a great deal of behavior that many consider immoral.
    (19) – Baptizing children before they can even speak. – Again, a matter of interpretation. If it is a kind of spiritual protection, it makes sense. If it is a matter of adult choice, adult baptism (or rebaptism) would make more sense. There is a long history of debate on questions concerning baptism – what it means, what it’s for, and so on. Different groups have different traditions. Wikipedia has a good article on baptism – start there.

    JWs have a tradition of claiming that “only JWS” believe or do this or that. This proves to them that they, and only they, are in possession of God’s “Truth.” On closer examination, some of the claims are untrue, and others, while true, don’t necessarily prove their alignment with God, or even with the teachings of Jesus.

  25. This discussion seems to have fizzeled out, but I couldn’t help but add this one thing…

    That verse that keeps coming up, John 17:3, I think it would be best to quote that from a Bible that has been well translated with the Watchtowers schedule of 5 meetings per week in mind.

    3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. -John 17:3

    This verse does not say that everlasting life comes from some intellectual form of academia. It is not talking about a program of study you must undertake with a certain religious group. It is speaking of a personal relationship with God.

  26. However, I don’t think that anyone who looks more closely would believe that they are Christians. They are more like Watchtowerites.

    You are absolutely right. My mother says that if you go on a Christian message board where JW’s have raided, they will toss your account so that you can’t post messages on anymore if you even try to talk about what the Bible teaches about Jesus. Looking over their beliefs about Jesus, they smash his status into something that can be stepped on. They make him unimportant.

  27. I am neither a JW or Christian. At this time in my life however I am having a Bible, note, Bible studyexpected to answer according to the answers provided in their material.

    So, I told them I don’t want to study from the book anymore. This is the book ‘What Does The Bible Really Teach.’ They said O.K. I chose the book of Hebrews because I think that it shows the awesomeness of Christ and describes his sacrifice for us, which replaced all the blood of bulls, and ordinances of the OT.

    The younger lady told me she needs help understanding the Bible, hence the need for the WT study aids. I remember telling them that since studying with them, what I realize is sadly missing from their teaching and study material, is the person of Jesus Christ, his power, who he really is, and most of all, I notice the absense of a personal relationship with Christ. They don’t seem interested in stressing a personal relationship with Christ.

    I can understand this(as I have seen discussed in this forum). For when one believes everlasting life is gained by taking in knowledge about God rather than Knowing God…

    About three weeks ago the older lady came and she was accompanied by the younger lady’s husband. I was wondering where she was and if he was just filling in for her on this particular Sunday. Well I know now why he came the last two times. He said he understood that I do not want to study from the Bible Teach book and ask me why. I said I don’t like how restrictive it is in terms of me thinking for myself and providing my own answers. He said I could answer however I wanted to. I told him I realize that when I provided an answer to any question, the ladies would stir me towards the predifined answers in the book.

    He ask why I chose Hebrews and I told him for the same reason as I provided paragraph two above. Without knowing me and what I know about the bible or God he tried to convince me that the book of Hebrews is too deep for me, not for babes who require milk, but for those who are mature enough to eat meat. I ask him why does he think that it is something that I can’t understand?

    Then he tried again to convince me of the necessity of studying from the Bible Teach book. It’s well organized, it’s easy to read and understand, and it explains the bible. My simple comment to this was, ‘I think the Bible can explain itself very well.’ I started to wonder what was really important to him, me studying from this book, or me learning WHAT DOES THE BIBLE REALL TEACH (though not according to this little yellow back book)?

    He use the well worn phrase ‘taking in accurate knowledge’, to which I responed that I did not like that phrase. If knowledge is accurate then there would be no need to change as the JW’s ‘accurate knowledge’ has changed so much over the years.

    This give me a chance to mention to him about one of the WT’s tatics of quoting previous publications. For instance quoting a publication from say 1918, in a 1975 publication but changing some of the words, which effectively changes the meaning to hide the fact that the 1918 version and the 1975 version do not agree. JWs may not look this up, therefore they won’t know the subtle deception employed.

    When he asked me to name some of their beliefs which I think were wrong I told him I would just name one, 1914. I told him I believe 1914 is an incorrect teaching from way back then which was never corrected. I also told him since other beliefs are based on 1914, if 1914 crumbles then a lot of other beliefs crumble also. He wanted to know if I got information like this from ‘apostates’. If 1914 is incorrect then Jesus did not return in 1914, he did not set up a kingdom only for the JWs in 1914. He asked me, ‘Suppose 1914 is correct.’ I simply smiled and retorted, ‘What if it’s wrong?’ He did not answer, to-be-sides, they were ready to leave.

    He told me I should do research on these things, I told him I did do research, that is what lead me to believe that JW’s teachings are incorrect. I told him since I told him what I believe is wrong he should do some research since he is a JW and would have access to previous publications. Their own publications is the evidence of their own ‘accurate knowledge’.

    As one of their publications stated, ‘What does the record show…’

    I have challenged a few JWs to reseach their own history, but they won’t do it. I was expecting them to come this Sun 5th Aug but they did not turn up. I remember they had told me about the ‘Follow the Christ’ convention but that starts here in Barbados 17th – 19th Aug 07.

    It just seems preposterous to me, how an organization which for all of it’s history has dispensed inaccurate knowledge in it’s season, can claim to be the only true religion and the only channel of Jehovah dispensing ‘meat in due season.’

    Pray that they will eventually chose the Bible as their foundation of knowledge and introduction to The Christ rather than the study aids of the Watch Tower.

  28. I received an invitation at my door for a district convention in Reading, PA. I googled Follow the Christ, Reading, PA and found this blog. I was just trying to get some information on the district convention, but what I came across was bitterness. I am not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but from reading your blog, it seems that you are VERY bitter and hateful. Ok, I understand you don’t agree with the way they run their organization, but why does that make you so angry? Just as you do not want them to be angry for not agreeing with them. I believe the world would be a much better place if we learned tolerance. Tolerance of others beliefs. If you don’t agree with them, move on. If they don’t agree with you, I’m sure they will move on. What is the big deal, really?? Jeez! If what you believe makes you a better person in your own mind, why does that make other people angry? Get a life! There are so many other things you can focus your energy on besides other people’s beliefs in which you don’t believe. LOL

  29. If you’d like to be critical of intolerance, take another look at the JWs. They are are extremely intolerant of others’ beliefs, since all other belief systems, including other Christian groups, are presented as being Satanic.

    I am more tolerant, and of a wider range of religious and spiritual beliefs, than most Christians would find laudable. However, I draw the line at the point where people are significantly hurt and damaged by those beliefs. Jehovah’s Witnesses are very destructive. They are not alone, of course, but some of the ways in which they influence their flock are worthy of study and criticism for the greater good.

    My life isn’t centered around this criticism, but I am more qualified to speak from experience about JWs than I would be for fundamentalist Islam, Judaism, or the other radical “Christian” groups that share some of the same problems.

    Contrary to your reading, I am not bitter about my own experience – I got off rather lightly in comparison to most others. I speak on their behalf, particularly on the behalf of women and children who will not or can not speak for themselves on these issues.

  30. Ok all you poor saps . ALL YOU PEOPLE NEED IS SLACK!

  31. definitely you don’t even know what you r saying, u virushead, i recommend knowing before speaking, but not twisting the sense of the things, i invite you to e-mail me, i can clear any doubt you may have

  32. “No need 4 name” – I know exactly what I am saying, and I am twisting nothing. JWs might not want anyone to say these things, but it doesn’t make them any less accurate.

  33. It seems that Jesus words of saying: You will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name.”—MATTHEW 10:22 has proved true for his true disciples. There is no other religious group more hated then Jehovah’s people.

    Responding to “gigastar” concerning her statement :

    “As far as I know, Christians are people who believe in the Trinitarian God: the Father, the Son Christ as the second person of this Trintiy and the Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians believe.”
    You are wrong!

    If the apostles taught the Trinity doctrine, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. So did they teach the Trinity doctrine?

    One of the earliest non-Biblical statements of Christian faith is found in a book of 16 short chapters known as The Didache, or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Some historians date it before or about the year 100 C.E. Its author is unknown.

    The Didache deals with things people would need to know to become Christians. In its 7th chapter, it prescribes baptism “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” the same words Jesus used at Matthew 28:19.3 But it says nothing about the three being equal in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. In its 10th chapter, The Didache includes the following confession of faith in the form of a prayer:

    “We thank you, Holy Father, for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts; and for the knowledge and faith and immortality which you have made known to us through Jesus your Servant. Glory to you forever! You, Almighty Master, created everything for your Name’s sake . . . And to us you have graciously given spiritual food and drink, and life eternal through Jesus your Servant.”

    There is no Trinity in this. In The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity, Edwin Hatch quotes the foregoing passage and then says: “In the original sphere of Christianity there does not appear to have been any great advance upon these simple conceptions. The doctrine upon which stress was laid was, that God is, that He is one, that He is almighty and everlasting, that He made the world, that His mercy is over all His works. There was no taste for metaphysical discussion.

    That concept of the Trinity Doctrine The Trinity doctrine began its slow development over a period of centuries. The trinitarian ideas of Greek philosophers such as Plato, who lived several centuries before Christ, gradually crept into church teachings. As The Church of the First Three Centuries says:

    “We maintain that the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers; that in the time of Justin, and long after, the distinct nature and inferiority of the Son were universally taught; and that only the first shadowy outline of the Trinity had then become visible.”

    Before Plato, triads, or trinities, were common in Babylon and Egypt. And the efforts of churchmen to attract unbelievers in the Roman world led to the gradual incorporation of some of those ideas into Christianity. This eventually led to acceptance of the belief that the Son and the holy spirit were equal to the Father.

    It’s very sad…that people claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not know their history…yet…we are very much aware of Jehovah having witnesses from the beginning of mankind.

    But what is even sadder is how those who believe in the Trinity doctrine have no ideal of it’s orgin.

    No Jesus never taught that he was equal to God, since it is Jehovah God that created him.

  34. It’s quite a simple thing in understanding the Trinity doctrine by using jesus own words. Yet many who many people are calling Jesus a liar.

    For Eample:

    Matthew 3:16 says : 16 After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

    Here Now is a voice from heaven (Jehovah God, the Creator, The Almighty) said..“This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

    So how is it that so many people believe that Jesus is God? Was Jesus talking to himself from heaven to himself?

    How about John 17:1:Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you”
    So Whom is Jesus praying too…himself? No…Jesus raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father…glorify your son, that your son may glorify you.

    After Mary realized that it was the resurrected Jesus.. at John 20: 17: Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father…‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

    Who is Jesus calling God…himself? and Is Jesus going to ascend to HIMSELF?

    And let’s not forget John 14: 28 Jesus himself said….rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. …

    Notice…he said ….the Father is Greater then HE IS not equal.

    Heb. 2: 9 syas that…behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man]….

    If Jesus was God why would he make himself LOWER then the angels…a creature that he created?
    Here’s another one scripture to conseider John 16:28 ..out of Jesus’s oun mouth he said:…28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.”

    How could Jesus come out from his Father…if he is the Father?

    Resoning on the scriptures and also from our own intellect..those who are truly seeking scripturalanswers…and those with the heart condition that accept God’s truth will :

    “But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.”—Rom. 3:4.

    But those who can not and will not understand God’s truth are as what is said in God’s Word the Bible, there is reads:

    “the god of this system of things(Satan the Devil) has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”—2 Cor. 4:3, 4.

  35. Was just wondering does not the use of god vs God mean god as in Jesus and God as in Almighty God? I’ve seen where many bibles have removed the name of God all together and only mention the name Jesus. So would this not confuse alot of people as to who is who?

  36. 1) Probably best to stick with the KJV or NKJV, I think; if a publisher begins to remove scripture or make the changes you (Adames-clan) refer to then confusion will certainly result.
    2) Very interesting blog; not sure why I am here except to say that God’s will leads us to places we never expect. So while I am here I will be brief. A crucifed and resurrected Jesus has given us many gifts; everlasting life, the Holy Spirit. I pray we let the Holy Spirit do His work through us, even while we travel amongst these blogs. If we could just get our selves out of His way, and let God do His work, He will certainly direct us in how to truly Love one another. My prayers are with you all.

  37. Thank you, Dave.

    The problem with the King James Version is that although it is the most poetic translation, it is riddled with inaccuracies. Biblical scholarship has come a long way…

  38. I certainly agree. Biblical scholarship has come a long way. I guess my point is that going from a publication like King James to, lets say, the NIV can be confusing as there are noticable ommissions of scripture and changes in meaning. As far as inaccuracies in the KJV, I realize that scholarly theologians have identified some universally agreed to errors in the KJV’s translation from the original or previous text. However, most Christians are not scholarly theologians; and praise God that the work of the Holy Spirit, God’s grace and the small amount of faith that most of us possess is sufficient to reveal the truth in God’s word. Hence, I have never been exposed to anything I would consider grossly inaccurate in the KJV/NKJV; only the living word of God.

  39. There are many translations of the Holy Scriptures..which proves that Jehovah God wants people to know the truth. Here is a web-site that anyone can go to and check out the different versions of tranlations of the Holy Scriptures.

    The Bible has one theme. If someone were to ask you: “What is the main theme of the Bible?” what would you say? Interestingly, the religious journal Modern Churchman said: “The significant contribution of theologians over the past century has been to rediscover the Kingdom of God as the main theme of the New Testament.” But have theologians and clergymen been making known this important Bible teaching to the people?

    The basic theme of the Bible is introduced in the earliest chapters of its very first book, Genesis. There, we read that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were created perfect and placed in a paradise garden, Eden. Eve, however, was approached by a serpent that challenged the rightness of God’s laws and lured her with subtle lies into a course of sin. Adam followed her and also disobeyed God. The result? Both were expelled from Eden and were condemned to death. We today suffer from the results of that first rebellion. We all inherit sin and death from our first parents.—Genesis 3:1-7, 19, 24; Romans 5:12.

    At that tragic time, however, God uttered a prophecy that gave a basis for hope. The prophecy was spoken to the serpent, but it was uttered in the hearing of Adam and Eve so that they could tell it to their children. Here is what God said: “And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Genesis 3:15; Romans 8:20, 21.

    Notice the four entities that are mentioned in this theme verse: the serpent and its seed as well as the woman and her seed. These entities would be key players in events for thousands of years to come. Constant enmity was to exist between the woman and her seed on the one hand and the serpent and his seed on the other. This enmity would include the ongoing conflict between true worship and false, right conduct and wickedness. At one stage, the serpent would gain a seeming advantage when it bruised the heel of the woman’s seed. Eventually, though, the woman’s seed was to crush the serpent’s head, and God himself would be vindicated when all traces of that original rebellion were removed.

    Who are the woman and the serpent? And who are their seeds? When Eve had her first son, Cain, she exclaimed: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.” (Genesis 4:1) Perhaps she felt that she was the woman of the prophecy and that this son would prove to be the seed. Cain, however, had a bad spirit like that of the serpent. He turned out to be a murderer, killing his own younger brother Abel. (Genesis 4:8) Clearly, the prophecy had a deeper, symbolic meaning that only God could explain. And this he did, a little at a time. All 66 books of the Bible contribute in one way or another to the revelation of the meaning of this, the first prophecy in the Bible.

  40. I’m a little surprised to see you back, Snowhoney, but welcome.

    Personally, I think it’s ludicrous to think that there is only one basic theme of the diverse collection of books called the bible. The whole idea of divine inspiration came pretty late into dogma, too. You have to work pretty hard and ignore quite a lot to weave the bits together to make it fit the way you want it to – but I guess the governing body does all that for you. JWs aren’t the only ones who creatively reinterpret the texts as one book, after all.

    You know, I never did hear an explanation about why JWs refer to “Jehovah God” as though Jehovah were the name and God the title, or Jehovah the first name and God the last name. Can you enlighten me, as long as you’re here?

    “Jehovah” is still a very odd way to represent the word that was never meant to be uttered outside the holiest of holies of the temple, but I guess it’s better that you create your own god than refer to the one that was actually described in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Also – “Satan the Devil”:

    Why not “Satan Devil” if “Jehovah God”?

    Why not “The Adversary” “The Prosecuting Attorney” “The Resister” or any of the other titles?

    And – do you know why the people who basically have the role of bishops and cardinals are called “overseers”?
    Isn’t that the language of slavery? Are JWs just sheep, or are they slaves? Do you know?

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