Conversation with a Jehovah’s Witness
A brave Jehovah’s Witness has engaged with me in the comments of the Following the Christ post.
Snowhoney expresses the usual views in the usual ways, so it’s a good example of the trained mindflow of a practicing Jehovah’s Witness. Sometimes JW comments are so emotive or hateful that I hesitate to claim that they really represent the views or practices of JWs in general, but this is good example of someone who is devout in the JW way.
I say that Snowhoney (I’m assuming a “she”) is brave because normally JWS are not allowed to read anything that is at all critical of the Watchtower Society. Her engagement is, perhaps, a kind of witnessing, although (like my own responses) it seems intended for other readers than myself. So – let’s have an audience. If any of the topics under discussion interest you, weigh in with your own views.
Heidi,
I read the exchange. I find it impossible to personally comment on the topic at hand, because I have always found that I have little or nothing coherent to say about the concept of an anthropomorphic, universal creative force, the existence or non-existence of which I can neither prove nor influence. Connie Willis’ Passages pretty much sums up what I personally feel I can believe about an afterlife.
On a meta level, though, I think that there is some interesting work to be done on this type of dialogue, ie., attempts at rational debate between people with fundamentally different worldviews. It’s tempting to look at it through a narrow lense (open minds are different than closed minds), but I think that there is more to talk about here than that.
For an example that I found intriguing, you might look at the talk pages for the different entries relating to “tax protestors” on wikipedia.
These entries are somewhat closely (some would argue em>too closely) edited by a tax lawyer intent on debunking the various theories that tax protesters use to assert that they are not legally required to pay their taxes (e.g. the gold fringe on the flag in federal district courts indicates that the court is sitting to exercise admiralty jurisdiction and, since we aren’t on a boat, tax cases opinions are void). This has led to some interesting (if you care for such things) NPOV debates on the talk pages re. general wikipedia editing rules with respect to “minority” or “fringe” views. It has also attracted some tax protesters drawn to the temptation of debating an actual lawyer about tax law.
Is labor property? Is it, smartypants? Too scared to answer, huh?
After some initial skirmishes, the lawyers ended up refusing to play the semantic game and retreated to (a) an, on the surface level, pretty lame argument from authority (ie. “it’s not worth arguing about this with you because you didn’t go to law school like I did”) and (b) a somewhat better functional argument (ie. “you may think what you like about what the words ‘income’ or ‘gain’ mean, but the federal courts have disagreed with tax protesters on these questions every time that they raise them, and if you stood up in federal court to argue this today you would be sanctioned.”)
As in your dialogue with snowhoney, it seems to me that there was a fundamental inability to get to the real issues caused, in part, by a very similar dissonance between approaches to textual interpretation. The rhetorical strategies were, of course, very different. But I see a connection.
The tax protesters pick language at random from published cases without regard to when the case was decided, who decided it, what the underlying issue was, and so forth. They interpret that language based solely on their common sense insight into what it has to mean. And then they invest this language with a magical authority.
Remind you of anyone?
The lawyers, dumbfounded, fall back on anecdotes about first year law school and arguments that would convince a court but are useless in context (”this position is frivolous in light of the tax court ruling in A, B, C and D, as well as…”)
Both sides are so invested in their chosen approach to the language of the texts that they fail to even reach the underlying issue, which is (I think) whether the federal government can legitimately take some of our wages away from us through the mechanism of an “income tax.”
It seems to me that you make a much better attempt to get at the root issue, but still no connection.
Is there any hope, in these situations, of finding bridge language?
I tied my hands a little bit in this conversation, because I didn’t want to get into actual debate about biblical interpretation. If I were really trying to persuade, my strategies would have been a little different – there would have been questions on areas of agreement. The practices of persuasion in this case were truncated, because as much as I disagree, she has every right to follow the Watchtower Society if she wants to. I had a more limited set of goals. I don’t feel the need to intervene in terms of trying to convince her to leave, so there is a boundary. The chances of breaking through her training are very slim, and an attack would be counter-productive. And I really don’t think there is much common ground. Besides, I am more of the “plant a seed” school. All of that stuff is best percolated from within.
Where both sides have a pragmatic, strategic interest, you’re always going to have the language that best supports each side’s goals. In areas like constitutional law, everyone is familiar with that.
There has to be some compelling reason to form a meeting-space, so to speak.
If there was such a reason, and a desire to see it work, one way to start would be to sketch out the “language world’ of each side. In terms of the meeting of language-worlds, work could be done on finding a common working metaphor that both could inhabit – somewhat experimentally – for a short time. For a specific discussion, you could set out what type of discussion this is – vocabulary clarification, context, precedent, philosophy, politics, etc. I would look for ways to establish consensus on a couple of styles of approach, so that there is a common horizon of what counts as a valid point. The rules of debate are a good place to start, and then more of a focus on dialogue rather than persuasion. I do think it is possible to find common goals from which to build a kind of cyborgian alliance of people that could work from the strengths of either side.
There is a lot of work out there that might be helpful for such a project, but I think there has to be a kind of formal aspect for it to succeed. Neither side may be interested in that, so then it comes down to rhetorical strategy – and they talk past each other. It’s a difficult, though common, problem.
Actually, Tina is very good at this sort of thing because it is at the heart of politics as well. Wish you were still nearby – and we could powwow on this.
I agree with respect to the “planting a seed” approach. Few people are persuaded on fundamental, difficult issues in one discussion. And creating a common language often requires an extended process of re-framing. Hence, law school, which is why I think that the claims to authority by lawyers in the tax protest debate are lame on the surface but also say something important about the way the law works.
It’s a lot of work, though, which is why the federal courts have, in my example, fallen back on the expedience of just fining people if they refuse to shut up and pay their taxes.
We miss you guys as well. Florida is unexpectedly wonderful. Hope all stays well in Atlanta.
I do not know how I missed the post this one is about! I went and read it yesterday. Then again last night. And again now. Wow.
First off, I am stunned that snowhoney even read anything here after figuring out *what* you were. I remember very clearly the feelings of fear that went along with reading anything other than JW stuff or inadvertently coming across something that could be considered apostate. So, I question strongly this persons *place* in any congregation.
Then, the vehemence and nastiness spewed by this person is startling. Sadly, I remember being exactly the same way. It makes my stomach turn to remember but remember I do. And I’ll tell you, in spite of all I know now, the reason I could never in a gazillion years even consider going back is the unkindness and, in reality, the hatred for all things not JW. I do not understand why it is necessary to train anyone to do that.
Thanks for sharing this. I imagine I will be writing about it at some point soon. Peace.
Traci – Actually, there is some wiggle room here. By the JW definition I’m not technically an apostate since I was never baptized in the first place.
I’ve been following your own blog posts. Horrible heartbreaking stuff to read. My heart flies out to you all the time. Hugzz.
why would someone question my place in the congregation…when they have rejected Jehovah themself?
I believe that Traci…would not listen to me just as she/he did not heed counsel…in their congregation.
So of course…they would question my place in my congregation…since she/he probably questioned the reason for..why they are no longer with Jehovah’s congregation!
When Truth is spoken people usually call it “vehemence and nastiness”…they call it that…because…they too…have rejected the Truth. It’s always the same.. No matter how I say it…rather in sweet words…or even with words…of HONEY…most people when they rejected Jehovah’s Truth…lash out…at his servants..and Jehovah himself…and say that what we say is with “vehemence and nastiness .”
Jehovah’s Witness hate no one…but we do hate the wickedness of the world…and those who practice it…just as our God Jehovah.
Jehovah God…only want those who WANT TO SERVE HIM…he does not want any one’s ‘ FORCED LOVED.’
If you are not serving Jehovah…then there is only one other spirit person you are serving….and IT IS NOT JESUS CHRIST.
There is only 2 forces….GOOD and BAD…..RIGHT OR WRONG….
Tell me please…if the good belongs to Jehovah and his annointed King Christ Jesus…whom do the bad belong too?
If all things that are right…belongs to Jehovah and his annointed King Christ Jesus…whom do all things wrong belong too?
If you are not serving the GOOD…..then you are serving the BAD!
Now you think you know Traci’s story too? Wow – you’re spinning out.
Anyway, I never saw anyone get “counsel” – I saw people get verses read at them whether or not they had anything to do with their issues or their situation. I heard of people being reprimanded, warned, threatened, surprised at their house with judicial actions, and kicked out. But counseled? Not really.
As for your split beween Jehovah/Jesus/good/JWs and Satan/evil/everyone-else… is that truly your world view?
You believe that JWs are good? Everyone else is bad? And that’s it? That’s the level of complexity and experience that you can handle?
Ummm…wow. I am stunned. Completely and utterly stunned.
For anyone to assume, on the basis of one comment, to know another’s story is well…ridiculous. And the height of presumption as well.
Snowhoney, while I hesitate to direct any comments directly towards you, I would like to say one thing…maybe two things. First, you don’t know anything about me. Second, if you are not willing to identify yourself with contact information included, I really have no desire to play the comment game with you.
Thank you for your ummm…dedicated and judgemental contribution to what is actually quite an interesting discussion.
Peace.
Oh, and if you’d like to know something about me, feel free to visit my very own personal blog…with my very own personal story written there for the whole world (and you) to see. Peace out, roger wilco and all that…
Traci –
I actually thought that she was one of the more moderate voices.
Things seem to have gotten worse among JWs. They must be ratcheting up the pressure.
Don’t let it get to you at all. Here for ya, hon. Peace.
Moderate! Now that is funny!
It’s truly amazing..that when those (Virushead..traci..etc) who are against Jehovah and Jehovah’s Organization..and Jehovah’s Servants… conjure up false stories…lies..wrong truths….
just because of your hatefulness of Jehovah’s Witnesses..or if you were baptized…and then reproved..or become no longer one of Jehovha’s Witnesses…. due to your pride…selfishness…or wanting to do things YOUR WAY.. or….
for what ever reason…and then ….write it…yell it..sing it out…saying things that are vicious and hateful..lies…distorted views that YOU HAVE…of Jehovah…his Witnesss…his Organization….
yet…you see nothing wrong with that!!! Why? Because it is YOU that is writing about it!! and it’s ok.
So…here comes…one of Jehovah’s Witnesses…setting matters straight…of the wrong that YOU have stated…now…..my words…the truth…OF WHAT I say…puts everybody on edge!!
So you consider me the bully…. because I AM TELLING THE TRUTH!!! ……..
….but you ….being YOU (YOU = meaning any who falls into believing the views of Virushead & Traci)…
YOU…..can …BASH JW’S…( and it’s ok)….LIE ON JW”s …( and it’s ok)….DISTORT TRUTHS…( and it’s ok)….HATE JW”S …( and it’s ok)….LOOK DOWN ON JW”s …( and it’s ok)….DISCREDIT JEHOVAH GOD …( and it’s ok)….
You can do all this …( and it’s ok)….but me…I’m now the bullie…because I AM TELLING THE TRUTH!
WOW!
YOU ALL ARE A REALLY A PIECE OF WORK!!!!
ALWAYS PATTING YOURSELFS ON THE BACK!!!!
Bully? No, I didn’t say that.
Can you tell me a lie about Jehovah’s Witnesses that I have said in any of our interactions?
yes…I can!
You said that you never heard anyone get counseled…here is a quote ofYOUR OWN WORDS:
“I never saw anyone get “counsel” – I saw people get verses read at them whether or not they had anything to do with their issues or their situation. I heard of people being reprimanded, warned, threatened, surprised at their house with judicial actions, and kicked out. But counseled? Not really.”
This tells me that..you paid no heed to parental training …by way of them …applying Deut. 6: 6 & 7…”these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must inculcate them in your son “…nor listening at the meetings …conventions…Assemblies..etc.
How does Jehovah counsels? He is not going to ‘whisper in your ear’…and your ear alone.
Long ago God inspired faithful men to write his counsel down in the Scriptures. This written Word of his contains his Fatherly counsel to us his children. …Although some of his instructions are directed to the nation of Israel.. they are for our benefit too. “For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction,” says Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ. (Rom. 15:4)
1. Jehovah also gives us counsel through his earthly organization. With his holy spirit ….operating upon the governing body of that organization… its counsel is in harmony with his will.
2. Through the publications of the Watch Tower Society good counsel is given on personal conduct…marriage… worship,… the keeping of integrity to God,…. our relationship with worldly political authorities…. and on many other things.
3. Through the congregation meetings….Jehovah’s organization gives us counsel on our service to God….our mental attitude toward our ministry,…. on spiritual maturity…. and so forth.
4. Then at times the congregation service committee may find it necessary to counsel us about something.
Through these means Jehovah’s organization gives counsel that will keep us spiritually healthy ….and keep our feet in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.
It keeps us in harmony with Jehovah. Whether it comes from the Bible or from Jehovah’s organization…..IT IS COMING FROM HIM..WHO’s HIM? …JEHOVAH the Only True God…..and … and is for our best interests.
Hence…all the verses read…scriptures…articles…public talks…watchtower study…Book Study…Assemblies..Conventions…rather it had ANYTHING to do with you or not….IT IS COUNSEL
If…whatever you had read…or heard …and at some point of reading those verses or scriptures…..IF…IF…it made you examine yourself…IF…IF…it applied to you…then…IT IS COUNSEL. OR…it could just have meaning to someone who was sitting next to you…or anyone else ….in the congregation!!!!
No matter who you are….how long someone’s been a Witnesses…in every meeting…Watchtower or Awake Magazines….Public Talk…Conventions….Assemblies….Book Study…or from a friend…an Mature Elderly Brother or Sister….or from the Elders……there is SOMETHING….that YOU…ME..ALL…can take and apply in our lives……IT IS COUNSEL! Why?
IMPERFECTION!
SO THIS IS JUST ONE OF MANY LIES…UNTRUTHS…MISGUIDED CONCEPTIONS…THAT YOU ARE SPREADING ABOUT JEHOVAH…JEHOVAH’S PEOPLE…AND ….JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION!!
And no…you did not literally call me a bullie….
But your words…imply it …just the same!
Ah, ok. I will grant you that if one includes all of what you say, which is usually called “guidance,” then there is in fact a constant bombardment of information.
However, if you look at the surrounding context of my statement, I was referring to one-to-one spiritual counsel from the elders. I was talking about the kind of pastoral counseling and mentoring that one might find among other religious communities, but which is strangely absent among Jehovah’s Witnesses. You haven’t addressed any of my questions about kindness or caring.
I am truly sorry if you or anyone else might have read it differently – but I don’t think that I can accept that statement as an example of a “lie.”
Most of the Witnesses that I had experience with, or that I have communicated with since, tended to avoid seeking spiritual help since it could so easily degenerate into a disciplinary action. If one was in the midst of a spiritual crisis, or a life crisis (such as domestic abuse, for example), the elders were not a safe place to go. For many, it meant that they couldn’t really talk to anyone about their spiritual concerns.
You say that all the “guidance” – or as you say “counsel” – from the Watchtower, its publications, and so on is the same as its coming from God. And you say that you are Christian.
Would you also say that spiritual counsel from a pastor (say, someone who was actually trained in pastoral care) in a different Christian church group was also coming from God?
Would it be more likely that God-directed or God-influenced guidance was possible from any of your “fellow Christian” groups than others? I’ll limit it to Christians.
Since you see the world as completely and totally divided between those who are on God’s side and those who are on Satan’s side, is there any possibility that any of these groups have spirit working with them? Are there any significant differences for you between them – Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Pentacostal, etc.?
No, I don’t think that you are a bully, and I wasn’t implying that you were a bully.
What I think – my own opinion – is that you have been trained to think along certain absolute lines. When information arises that doesn’t really fit into your pre-built framework, I don’t think that you have a way to hear it, absorb it, or digest it, or think it through. You can only rely on the arguments that have been drilled into you, whether or not they actually apply. It seems to be a bit frustrating. You have to ignore a lot, and you are directing some anger my way. I understand why that’s the case, and I don’t really take it personally.
Such narrow thinking is like saying to God, “Thank you for the wonderful diversity and complexity and wonder of our universe and our minds and spirits, but I’m not really that interested. I’m just going to sort these things into two categories and ignore everything else.”
That’s one of the problems, not only with Jehovah’s Witnesses, but with a lot of similarly rigid and controlling groups. The whole range of human complexity is shut out in favor of a sort of robotic view. And that’s a problem not only for spirituality, but also for psychological stability and cognitive function. The results of such a mindset have rarely led to anything good.
In effect, you say “heil” to the Watchtower organization.
Well, Jesus didn’t do anything like that.
SnowHoney said: or….for what ever reason…and then ….write it…yell it..sing it out…saying things that are vicious and hateful..lies…distorted views that YOU HAVE…of Jehova”It’s truly amazing..that when those (Virushead… traci..etc) who are against Jehovah and Jehovah’s Organization..and Jehovah’s Servants… conjure up false stories…lies..wrong truths….just because of your hatefulness of Jehovah’s Witnesses..or if you were baptized…and then reproved..or become no longer one of Jehovha’s Witnesses…. due to your pride…selfishness…or wanting to do things YOUR WAY…now…..my words…the truth…OF WHAT I say…puts everybody on edge…because I AM TELLING THE TRUTH!!!”
My thoughts about this are many however the comment I’m willing to leave here is this: SnowHoney, I believe you are telling *your* truth. I believe that you have been trained to see only two ways-right and wrong; jehovah’s way or satan’s way. I still do not understand why, since you have clearly pegged VirusHead as an apostate, you continue to return to this site. What is your goal? What are you hoping to accomplish? What would happen to you if anyone in your congregation discovered your visits to and your vitriol on this site? Your words certainly cannot be construed as loving or concerned for your fellow man. They do not appear to be directed towards teaching or anything other than loud-mouthed yelling at people who do not agree with you. I don’t remember ever learning anything about browbeating non-believers during the meetings. I distinctly remember being taught to ’shake the dust off’ my feet and move on. So I repeat, what is the goal here?
You are really bent on believing that we exalt the Watchtower. (hahahaha)
You have no clue!…that is your main problem.
The Watchtower..is just the legal means by which we are recognized! We worship Jehovah God…(not the watchtower…hahaha)
We exalt Jehovah God…as Creator..and universal soverign…..(not the watchtower…)
We put Jehovah God on high above anything else…(not the watchtower…)
Again…the Watchtower..is just the legal means by which we are recognized!
By you saying what you did…just shows…that YOU REALLY KNOW NOTHING…about Jehovah’s Witnesses..or Jehovah’s Organization.
It shows that the limited knowledge you have…is flawed!!!
Sure…grant you…you know basic things…but as far as how you “try to elobrate’…on certain things…YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE!
But…you continue to ‘ATTACK’ Jehovah and his people…
Yes…I will say this…
Jesus told the chief men or clergy of the Jews in his day:…… “You are from your father the Devil and you wish to do the desires of your father.” …..He that has God as his father sees God’s Word and obeys the truth. ….But those who repeat Satan’s lies prove themselves ……to be the children of the Devil.—John 8:44
In these days ,,,,,there are many wicked men who speak lies….. identifying themselves as of their father the Devil. …
“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” (Ps. 58:3)
You and others…. like Satan the Devil….try to be bearers of light and try to add to God’s Word in order to make themselves APPEAR…. to be right and truthful.
Jehovah …turns the light of truth from his Word upon what you… say…. and his Word of truth reproves you… and shows you…and others… up to be liars.
I …and all of Jehovah’s true worshippers…receive instructions from Jehovah God himself..and he channels his instructions…by means of Jesus Christ..our King…and..in turns…through his Annointed Brothers.,,,the Bible…and his Earthly Organization.
There is no need to seek spiritual truths..from any other source!
That is why YOU TURNED AWAY FROM JEHOVAH. Wanting more of what the world offers. …and you have found it!
I will put it like this:
If…any of the world’s religion…ARE NOT SERVING JEHOVAH…they have no authority to minister or provide couseling.
then NO….THEY DO not have Jehovah’s holy spirit…in counseling…..
How can they…when they do not know Jehovah?
They are not ‘obeying Jesus commands’
They teach false doctrines.
so they surly…they are not teaching the Truths…according to God’s word the Bible.
The clergy claim to be ….ministers (from minister, a Latin translation of di·a′ko·nos, “servant”). …For this, they graduate from colleges or seminaries and are ordained.
Who ordains the ministers?
“In churches that have retained the historic episcopate, the ordaining minister is always a bishop.
In Presbyterian churches, ordination is conferred by ministers of the presbytery.”
In the churches of Christendom….the privilege of being a minister has been severely restricted. Ye….. this is not the case among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why not?
Because it was not that way in the first-century Christian congregation.
According to the Bible, all Jehovah’s worshipers—heavenly and earthly—are ministers.
Angels ministered to Jesus. (Matthew 4:11; 26:53; Luke 22:43)
Angels also “minister for those who are going to inherit salvation.” (Hebrews 1:14; Matthew 18:10)
Jesus was a minister. He said: “The Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister.” (Matthew 20:28; Romans 15:8)
Therefore, since Jesus’ followers were to “follow his steps closely,”…… it is not surprising that they too must be ministers.—1 Peter 2:21.
Jesus said to his disciples: “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)
Jesus’ disciples were to be disciple-makers—ministers…..
The new disciples they made would learn to observe all the things Jesus’ commanded….including the command to go forth and make disciples.
Man or woman…adult …..or child….a true disciple of Jesus Christ would be a minister.—Joel 2:28, 29.
Note the purity of Paul’s motive..as to being a minister… as he explained: “As out of sincerity, yes, as sent from God, under God’s view, in company with Christ, we are speaking.” (2 Corinthians 2:17)
This is the way Jehovah’s Witnesses are speaking today. But are we recommending ourselves as ministers?
Do we need to publish letters of recommendation from others?
Paul disavowed qualification for his ministry as something he developed. …..He said: “Our being adequately qualified issues from God, who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant.” (2 Corinthians 3:4-6)
Unlike Paul…..the clergy of Christendom claim to be “adequately qualified” because of having graduated from theological seminaries. ……So they deny……. that those who are not seminary graduates are qualified ministers having authority to teach.
Did Jesus establish any theological seminary for his 12 apostles or anyone else to attend? NO!!
No less so today, a person’s being adequately qualified for the true Christian ministry must issue from Jehovah…. the greatest Teacher.
Therefore…since….“Our being adequately qualified issues from God, who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant.” (2 Corinthians 3:4-6)….
Why would I seek spiritual counsel from any other of those who claim are ‘ministers?’
They are not qualified!!
No, I do not believe you worship the Watchtower Bible and Tract corporations. However, you have taken their words as the authority – over and above the spirit. You do not trust yourself, so you have to be told what God wants. And you believe that they are the authorities on that. In effect, since they control all your practices and beliefs and interpretations – even down to the way you cut off your own family members or refuse to report abuse to the authorities – they have taken the God-position in your lives. You have no religious courage.
The argument you give is extremely strange, even for a JW.
You argue that pastors are not supposed to be qualified, and then say that they are unacceptable because they are not qualified?
One way to interpret what you are saying is that your ministry comes directly from God. In that case, spirit should guide you in your calling – but you do not allow that.
You say that you are all ministers, but who picks the ministerial servants, the elders, the district and circuit overseers, all the way to positions at Bethel and on the governing body? You have just as rigid a hierarchy as any other church.
Caring people in other religious communities – people who dedicate their lives in service to others – they would say (just like you) that they are Christians and they serve God. How do you know that God has not qualified them to be ministers? If the qualification is ultimately directly from God, who are you to say that it has been withheld from them?
And If you believe that all other Christian ministers are lacking in holy spirit, are unqualified, and do not serve God, what is their relationship to God? You say everything is either from God, or against God in alignment with or control by “another spirit creature.”
Are you actually saying – for the record – that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that people in all other religions serve Satan and not God?
Virushead…you seem to “not understand”…when I said….
There is only 2 forces….GOOD and BAD…..RIGHT OR WRONG…if the good belongs to Jehovah and his annointed King Christ Jesus…whom do the bad belong too?
If all things that are right…belongs to Jehovah and his annointed King Christ Jesus…whom do all things wrong belong too?”….
So…let me clarify…as you did earlier… I said…there are only “2 FORCES…GOOD AND BAD.”
Hence..if you read the whole context…I was not saying…that ALL JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES are the only good….I am referring too….the 2 forces that exist in the world.
I did not say…everyone else…is bad. There are many good people on this earth…but being good…does not mean…they are serving the True God Jehovah….i
t just mean they are good people.
If you are not serving Jehovah God…and even Jesus said…at John 17:3…that Jehovah..is the “Only True God”..
If you are not serving the Only True God…you tell me…who are you serving?
So I am asking about other Christians who serve God.
Do they serve God? Is it possible that the spirit is within them?
If not, why not?
How would you be in any position to judge that the spirit is not within them?
And why would you hesitate to say what you so obviously mean?
You are wrong….I am not ‘cut off’ from my family.
They are not Witnesses…but I do not cut them off…as you claim we do..
Yes…certain..practices that my family do…i do not get involved. Because it is not scriptual to do so!
But of course…you should know that…since you are giving..advice to others…about your knowledge of going to the meetings!
I regularly am with my siblings…my family…
But…when family members..are going against what i know that will endanger my spirituality…and my relationship with Jehovah….I maintain a balance in that area….with ..family.
You say to others…you are helping them…because you know…but YOU DON’T KNOW…
Your views are distorted…because of lack of faith…of believing anyway!
Traci…yes….
in the beginning it seemed that I was saying she was a apostate….but clearly…I even said…that ,….
since she was never baptized…she was never one of Jehovah’s Witnesses..therefore….she is not a apostate.
My reason for being here is telling truth!
If this site was not opened to everyone…then i would never have been able to comment.
Yet I know…soon…you will delete all my comments…as you have that right…..
or …
prevent me from commenting altogether.
You haven’t answered the questions – how do you know that other Christian ministers are not qualified by God? If you are all ministers, why doesn’t your calling matter?
There are two layers of family estrangement – one is the gradual alienation of the newly-converted JW from their family. The other is the shunning that follows from someone in the family being disfellowshipped.
Oh – no worries. I would never delete these comments. Why on earth would I do that?
You’re a little bit too vehement to be effective in the door to door work. You must be a relatively new convert.
Just to be fair and kind… If I were you, I would consult with someone else before commenting any further. They have issued all kinds of warnings and prohibitions about exactly this kind of thing, and you could really get into trouble in your congregation.
This isn’t what the Society wants to see happening.
Virushead…you said…that you had went out and searched…read…researched…learned new things…opened your mind to other things..
So..if that is the case…then you have a intelligent mind.
…and you can answer the question for yourself!
The scriptures…i gave concerning who is adequately qualified ..to be ministers…..is self-examplantory!
Jesus had these words to say….
SHORTLY before Jesus died, he ‘raised his eyes to heaven’ to pray. ….
He addressed the One to whom he was praying as “the only true God.” (John 17:1, 3) Reasonably, there can be only one living and true God, the Sovereign of the universe, the Creator.
The Psalmist said:…“O Jehovah, . . . you are God, you alone.”—Psalm 86:9, 10.
Psalms 83:18 tells us what the only True Gods name: ….
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
So..if you are not serving the Only True God…you..Virushead…can answer your own question!
Virushead….I don’t need to consult…with anyone about your question….
You really already know the answer!
If you ever read…the literture…I am not saying anything…that you should already know…or believe you know…Virushead…
Our beliefs…are open to all…nothing is hidden about what we believe..and why.
Yet…you are directing me to consult about something that is known to everyone.
My answer is not the same as your answer.
I know what you believe – I used to teach it. I just want to see a JW actually say it. And you won’t, so you already know that there is something wrong with it.
I am asking what puts you in a position to judge that these other Christians are not serving God? Because the governing body says so, right? Have you ever tried to think it through for yourself? Have you ever met a humble, wise, kind or holy person in another faith community? Why would you believe that you are serving God, and that person is not?
I am not asking you to consult on the answer, but on the wisdom of providing such a poignant illustration of JW-speak and mindset. They prohibit this, you know, and you only have wiggle room because I am technically not an apostate. Still, I am fairly certain that any local elder would tell you to stop. Just giving you the heads up. Take it or leave it – just trying to be nice.
If you ever read…the literture…I am not saying anything…that you should not already know…or believe you know…Virushead…
Our beliefs…are open to all…nothing is hidden about what we believe..and why.
Yet…you are directing me to consult about something that is known to everyone.
It is because the Bible says so Virushead…not me….But..
.
I believe what the Bible says…as to if a person is not serving Jehovah…then..who are they serving.
What you really are trying to do…is….
Once…i give a answer….you will…AS YOU ALWAYS DO… twist my words..
So I therefore…will let you answer the question.
Since Jehovah God …by means of his Son Jesus Christ…is directing the Governing Body…then of course…I believe what they say…Why?….because it is coming from Jehovah.
Surely…there are many humble, wise, kind people of another faith…in my community..your community…all over the world….but NOT HOLY!
I know they believe that they are holy…but i know they are not…Because they are not serving the Only True God…Jehovah.
I know that I am serving the True God…because I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. And if others are also one of Jehovah’s Witnesses…then surely they are also…serving Jehovah God.
It seems that you…continue to try to ‘twist what I am saying”. Trying to put “another meaning” on WHAT I SAY.
You believe that you are the only intelligent person here who have knowledge..of Jehovah’s Organization.
Yes…you do have some knowledge…but…again…it is not ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE… since..you are not associated with Jehovah’s Organization… or is limited…and partial…(perhaps so you can learn more…on how to ward off Jehovah’s Witnesses…I said PERHAPS)….so…you HAVE NO CLUE…
When you leave Jehovah’s Organization…rather…IF you ‘faded’..left…disfelloshipped..or whatever….your (OR ANYONES) ….knowledge…of what you once had…is limited..and as you said…it “FADES”…as you faded from the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Fades…to the degree.. of now ..your thinking is “DISTORTED…TWISTED…”…
So..therefore Virushead…you answer the question!
Oh No Virushead…you are wrong…
I am not new in the Truth!
Decades…but not new dear!
They prohibit what?
Me commenting on this web-site?
You see! Again…you do not have ACCURATE KNOWLEGE!
It seems that you are trying scare tactics…and for what?
What are you afraid of?
You say I am judging…where did I judge anyone?
I am giving you scripitual points…I am not judging you…just stating FACTS…you are MISLEADING others…by your own distorted views…and hatred of Jehovah’s Witnesses!
In any case, the strategies work for people stuck in odd situations with JWs. And they can sometimes help people who have been cut off and isolated to start finding their own way.
You’re right that I have written over some of my memories, especially some of the scriptural details. I had better information to replace it. I still have the books for reference, though. My place isn’t to debate all of the interpretations and justifications. You can argue with someone else about doctrinal matters. I’m more concerned with the basics.
But you say I should answer. Since you already have shown, over and over, that you hesitate to say it, and therefore you feel the wrongness of it – Yes. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there are no other Christians – not even another worshipper of God. It’s amazing, but they actually believe that all other religions are of Satan. They are fanatics. Be grateful that (except for a few spin-offs) they are pacifists and seem to have little interest in government (although I have to wonder about the “new world order” thing).
You don’t have the courage of your convictions to do anything but imply it, but you honestly try to tell yourself that all of these other people who have dedicated themselves to God and to lives of service and love are actually Satanic.
I just feel sorry for you. You miss so very much.
The word you use…vehement…meaning… Characterized by forcefulness of expression or intensity of emotion or conviction…or…it is …Marked by or full of vigor or energy; strong.
Aren’t you just a forceful with MISLEADING others? Telling them the WHO..WHAT..WHERE..WHY…and ..HOW COME?
So… I am not to be full of vigor…because i have been in the Truth for some decades?
It is only for those who are Babes…in the Truth…to be full of vigor or convictioin ….or energy for Jehovah?
That is not how it goes….As the years… go by….a person becomes stronger in the Truth…and not weaker…
But..you really don’t have any ideal…about Jehovah…his Organization….or his people…
Belive me when I say Virushead….I have the convictiion to say…all of Jehovah’s truth.
Yet..there is also a scripture that says:….“Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men.”—Matt. 10:16, 17..
Yes…you like to Twist things…as to putting your own mentality on my words…so…it is good…that you can answer that question for yourself.
I will not ALLOW you totake what i say out of context!
You are judging – anyone can see that. Just because you don’t say it outright doesn’t mean it isn’t clear.
No, dear, if I were using scare tactics, I’d mention the locations of the other IPs that are following this conversation very closely. I’d mention your location. There are any number of things I could say or do to scare you. I’m actually trying to save you some problems. Like I say, take it or leave it. I’m guessing you’re not going to share your online identity with members of the congregation anyway.
My words are strange to you Virushead…especially when the Bible says..
that those who have not come to know Jehovah God…or are Baptized in Jehovah’s name..(recognigzing Jehovah’s soverignty)….
in Jesus name..(recognizing Jesus Christ role in Jehovah’s purpose)….
…in the Jehovah’s Holy Spirit..( understanding that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active force…by means he accomplishes His purpose…)…
So…if other religions do not understand all these things…rather they call themselves…clergy men or not….
then the Bible says…they are… adequately qualified ..
….That means it must be God who ordains or appoints a person to be his minister.
I am sad about this entire exchange. Do you have any idea at all, snowhoney, how you are coming across? Every single scripture you quote, every accusation you make, every single word you’ve written has shown you to be judgemental, haughty, unkind, pompous and just plain rude.
Your comments about reading the literature that the society publishes to gain accurate knowledge make my stomach hurt. Every single piece of literature from the watchtower society says the same thing over and over and over… perhaps with a few new words here and there. It’s remarkably akin to programming.
There’s no need to reply to me with capital letters that equate to yelling either. I have every piece of literature that I obtained through out my life as a JW and I have every piece of literature that my disfellowshipped parents obtained throughout their lives as JW’s. I know what they say. I remember very well. I know also that it is possible to study that literature without having a bible anywhere near you.
You all claim to study the bible however that isn’t the case in my experience. You study the literature. It boggles my mind to be having this conversation. I simply do not understand how you (and most JWs I come across now or in my past) can claim to be loving and concerned about others in the world and then in the same breathe be so judgemental and rude.
I have a next door neighbor who is a JW and she works at the same place I do. She has got to be the rudest, most unkind person I’ve met in a long time and wasn’t the least bit welcoming when we moved in. She didn’t know that I was once a JW. She simply behaved as I know she is encouraged to behave. I’ll be completely honest with you and tell you this: I wouldn’t go back simply because it’s become so clear that JWs are just not nice.
Don’t bother telling me that I don’t know either. I do know. I simply don’t *like* what I know. You say you are here to tell truth. I don’t believe you. I think you are here to stir up a whirly-gig. For what purpose I have no idea. It is, of course, your choice to be here. I would still like to know what you are getting out of this. There has to be a reason…a reward…a purpose. It is quite interesting to see your rudeness and hatred up close however it is quite unbecoming to one of Jehovah’s people.
Peace.
Heidi, I have so much to say but it’ll lead you off track. You are so courageous, my friend. Strong, and yet trying so hard to show compassion.
In a very weird way, SnowHoney, I admire you while I feel sorry for you. I admire your conviction and your courage to come and confront someone who must seem very dangerous to you. I feel sorry because having sat in your chair, fought for the Society the way you are doing now, I know what can happen. I know the incredible sense of betrayal and abandonment that comes when the Society you faithfully serve does not serve you in your need. May it never happen to you, SnowHoney. Maybe it’s changed since I was there, maybe it was just my congregation, maybe things are different now. I truly hope so.
Tracy, blessings to you, dear.
I am so very happy with my path, even knowing that it would be labled apostate by the JWs. I was baptized. I am disfellowshipped. I am no longer ashamed. Of anything.
I need to blog now, but I’m not sure I that brave yet.
Traci and Christy – thank you so much for your insights and comments here. I hope that seeing all this up close has at least the benefit of helping you to understand, and really see, how very much that you have grown. I find it difficult to believe that either of you would have been acting quite at this level, but it’s a stark reminder of some basic trends. Do you remember using this verse?
“Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves. Be on your guard against men.”
My memories were two-fold. One had to do with the demeanor one should have in service – always look conservative, always act unruffled and kind, always exercise self-control. Be in control of how the conversation goes. Always present the most appealing things, and only gradually introduce the prohibitions.
The other application was the policy of the theocratic war strategy. Since everyone else is satanic and worldly, it’s ok to dissemble and even lie – in court or anywhere else, if it is for the sake of protecting God’s people and/or the organization against the “enemy.”
Myself, I always thought that a better example was the ability to present teachings that resonated differently to different people in the audience. Jesus being asked about paying taxes is a brilliant example, or the ability of Paul to “speak as the Romans do.”
Snowhoney repeats the organizational training. She cannot even consider the possibility that others serve God. If she were not trained away from actual study, she would know that Jesus encouraged each person to judge for themselves, not to be a slave to any organization.
I earlier mentioned Matthew 7, “Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but are inwardly ravenous wolves.” Christ does not give the power of judgment to an organization, but to the pupils. How could one beware of false prophets if one did not consider and judge their teaching? Teachers and their teaching should be subject to the judgment of the listeners.
Or, my favorite saying of Paul’s, 1 Thessalonians 5, “Test everything but hold fast to that which is good.”
No teaching or decree should be obeyed unless it is examined and recognized as good by the person hearing it. That is supposed to be one of the differences between christians and “the world.” “Worldly” rulers – like kings and dictators – command and their subjects have to accept it. “But among you it should not be so.” Christians were offered the spiritual freedom – and the spiritual responsibility – to doubt and to test for goodness, and to oppose the teachings of spiritual tyrants.
This has been utterly lost among Jehovah’s Witnesses. They judge others as Satanic without knowing them. They cannot conceive of testing the organization.
And when they know that it looks bad, they won’t come right out and say what they mean and believe.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt47lPS_QEw[/youtube]My name is Gidget. I had stumbled onto this site, while doing some research. And I have monitered the thread.
The comments from Snowhoney, Virushead,Traci, Paul, Christy and Zone.
I am not a Christian per say, but I just read my bible and i am trying to have more faith.
If I may say this please. What I heard from snowhoney is, and I am gathering that she being a JW’s, she was saying how most others are distorting the JW practices on this site.
I believe that she showed strong convictions of her beliefs, and I really did not see it as her judging any one, only of what JW’s believe.
Again I am of no set religion or doctrine as yet. I was just following along in all of your comments.
But what I did see, hear, and read were all of your attacks on her!
Really, how is it that because she is defending her beliefs so terrible? All of you were even more forceful towards her in your words, yet, none of you saw anything wrong with what you said at all!!
I believe that at the beginning of her comments, this JW had some things wrong about you Virushead, and Traci also. But she did clarify that.
Truly, I saw more hate, disgust, and nastiness on all of your parts, then on her part!
But I see that quite often among people who have this hate for JW’s. I have seen them on my street, even have some as neigbors, but what some of you are saying about JW’s, I haven’t seen that about them.
I know they have a strong conviction of their beliefs…and stay closer to those of their faith especially if their siblings, mother, father, etc. are not JW’s too. But isn’t that what most religions do?
Aren’t you closer to the ones who share your same beliefs?
I don’t see it as because of what they believe that they are responsible for breaking up families.
Because even in the Bible, God told his people the Nation of Isarel, that they were to stay separate from the sinful practices of the debased nations surrounding them and not to develop close ties.
If JW’s believe that they are God’s people, and others do not accept the way their religion is ran, how is it that breaking up families, since perhaps some of the family members don’t believe as they do? Would they do as their family members say they should do? Or should they follow who they worship as God, Jehovah?
Grant you, they seem almost obsessed with their religion, but from all the scriptures that some have showed me, I say for the most part, they are following the Bible.
I am not here trying to debate, or change any ones mind, which according to what I have read from all of your comments, I couldn’t if I tried!
I am not on anyone’s side, I was just observing the thread. But I want to say this though
All of you here on this site, really were not as kind, humble and caring as you give yourself credit for, especially what I have read.
Again, I am not on anyone’s side. I was just observing, and wanted to leave this comment.
Thank you
I saw a lot of hate thrown at this ‘one’ person, all because she was defending her faith.
I’m really trying to be fair, and to take your comment seriously, Gidget, despite the fact that your given email includes “life.eternal” and you are writing from the very same IP and town as Snow
bunnyhoney (Sorry, that was an honest mistake throughout this entire post – correcting now).I guess it’s a matter of perspective. We each do affirm those as important values, but I didn’t see anybody trumpeting their own kindness, humility and so on. Is it even possible to trumpet humility? What would that even look like?
Nor do I see hate. Actually, I think that all the former JW women (Heidi, Traci, Christy) who commented all recognize something of ourselves in her words. That’s one of the things that makes it so heartbreaking and difficult.
Perhaps, if you are not actually Snowhoney under another name, you might start at the other post to see how it started – with her comment that tried to tell me who I am – a person not unrelated to Satan. Sure, if I were more advanced, I would not have bothered conversing at all. But really, I’m tired of this kind of thing.
There is disagreement about a number of issues. In engaging with her, I was hoping that it might have a chance of morphing into a reasonable discussion, such as one that you might have at the door. Some of the previous comments by current JWs were so over the top that I found it difficult to believe that they were representative.
At some points, I wasn’t as nice as I wanted to be, but neither was I as forceful or nasty as I was often tempted to be.
Here is someone who believes that no-one else on the planet worships God except for Jehovah’s Witnesses, no one else acts from the spirit of love, that there is no service to others outside of witnessing, and that every other religious perspective is Satanic and without merit. She refuses spiritual responsibility for herself, despite many personal sacrifices, for the sake of an organization – an organization with a history of which she is almost completely unaware. What JWs believe about their own leadership keeps them slaves to it. From that position, she calls me haughty, presumptuous, and tries several times to tell me my own life story – including several things which are entirely untrue. She doesn’t respond to the points that she cannot address.
The truth of the matter is this: I feel sorry for her, truly sorry – like I would feel toward a child whose parents pimped her out on the street. I understand more than she thinks I do.
And, she illustrates some of the problems so beautifully that I could never have made it up if I tried. No, I’m not trying to help her – but honestly, I think it’s beyond my ability even if I were called to try – which I’m not. I’m not a deprogrammer, only a supporter, adviser, and sometimes a teacher. Decisions have to come from within.
I don’t hate her, but I despise what the Watchtower has done to create people who think like she does at this point. You can think what you like, but I see no Christian virtues there. That’s not to say I believe I’m such a paragon, but I’m criticizing practices of hatred, control, and alienation that create something so opposite to the whole christian message. She doesn’t see it, she won’t see it. That’s her choice, ultimately.
People who read these posts can judge for themselves, as you have. I’m sorry you feel the way you do. My feelings are not pure and loving, perhaps, but they are not hateful.
On dividing families, I agree with Richard Francis:
Other homework:
Why Jehovah’s Witnesses Have Mental Problems, Jerry Bergman
Totalism in Today’s Cults, Jan Groenvald
Watchtower Society settles sexual abuse cases to prevent victims from speaking out, Watchtower Information Service
Gidget/Snowhoney, if you please, can you show me what part of my response is an attack? It was an awfully brief comment, if it’s there, I’m sure you won’t mind showing me.
As for Heidi’s assertions, I am tempted to agree. Your writing style is similar, you claim to be non religious and yet refer to God as “God, Jehovah”? Please. Most of us have been around the internet a very long time and can spot this sort of technique when we see one. This sort of behavior doesn’t win people to your cause; it merely demonstrates that this is a struggle not worth fighting.
On second thought, I don’t actually care if you come back to show where I attacked you. If you felt attacked by what I said, you must have looked very hard and twisted very much to get there. Go with your God; I have no use for this sort of debate. I’ve grown up.
What is a IP? I don’t know how you know what town she lives in, but I am sure that where ever she lives, there are other people.
What is wrong with me using life.eternal as my user Id? I gave myself that Id because of my Dad. He died and he always said when he died his life would be eternally in heaven. So I choose it in remembrance of him.
I never called God Jehevah. what I said was and I am quoting it:
“Would they do as their family members say they should do? Or should they follow who they worship as God, Jehovah?
I said “or should they follow who they worship as God” Jehovah”
Now you both are attacking me! As if I did or said something that you don’t like.
Well you don’t have to worry about me ever asking questions, making comments, or even asking for any of help.
My Goodness, I never seen anything like this.
I wanted to ask or discuss a problem, but i see that this is not where I want to be.
Have a nice day
Gidget – Let me explain. Each machine connected to the Internet has an address known as an Internet Protocol address (IP address). When someone comments, I can look up the IP address of the person who comments. In many cases, there is sufficient information to be able to pinpoint the region, or even the exact town. How much information is available depends on a number of factors, including who hosts their connection. The hosts can often give you even more information, if you have reason to ask them.
Sometimes, people hide their identities – like when they don’t use a real email address, or provide a url. There have been cases before – on this blog, and elsewhere – where one person “poses” as more than one person. This is done to pretend they are getting support from someone else, or that there is a majority opinion where such does not exist.
This kind of behavior is exhibited by people called “trolls” – who will come to a blog or site just to create a problem – say to post insulting or offensive material, or just to bait the author.
When you have the same IP and town of origin on two commenters, especially when the first commenter has been strident and then suddenly “disappears,” there is reasonable suspicion that the new person is actually the old person “in disguise.” Your words and style suggested that you might have actually been “Snowhoney” under another name, or perhaps a friend of hers, etc. Also there was a bit of “protesting too much” that you were not a JW, had no stake, etc – and it rang a bit funny.
So while I did want to signal the possibilities to other readers, I also wanted to respond genuinely in case that wasn’t what was going on, which I did.
Apologies for any misunderstandings.
The answer to your question VirusHead is simple. Only God can read hearts. Would he judge someone who thought they were doing the right thing their whole life in their worship, only to find out in the end that it was the wrong religion? or the wrong way to serve God? What about people living in primal tribes in the world who have no exposure to mainstream religion? The whole purpose of witnesses is to spead bible teachings worldwide. As followers of Christ, they spread the same message Jesus taught, “about the vindication of Jehovah’s name and his kingdom.”
Here are a few factors to consider about religion. Every religion has some form of structure or organization. Everything in life does. However, I’m sure that you agree that everyone is imperfect. Even if you found the true religion, you have to realize that the organization is ran by imperfect people. Does that mean you give up on your spirituality because of disagreements based on the influence of imperfect man?
Regarding, Jehovah’s Witnesses, they are clean people. They uphold the bible and try to live like the first century Christians did. This is before true Christianity was conjoined with pagan teachings by the Romans during Constantine’s (sp) time of rulership, in attempt to stop conflict and civil war and have the Roman empire gain power.
~ FYI – you may check my IP – im not from here
~
Regards…
First century Christians regarded Jesus as in some sense God’s presence in human form. This was unacceptable to most Jews, and is unacceptable to JWs. They also subscribed to the idea of a new covenant, although JWs still hold to their own interpretation of pre-christian law. First-century Christians believed in salvation by faith motivated by love, not in adherence to an organization. Most important, they were taught to question teachings to see if they were in accordance with what Jesus had taught. Questioning is prohibited by JWs.
I have no problem with loose organization, but the history of the Watchtower organization shows that they gave up the first-century forms in favor of an totalitarian centralized corporate authority. If JWs were not discouraged from reading actual biblical scholarship, or even histories of their own religion, they would have a better sense of spirituality.
The letter of the law without the spirit is dead.
I am a JW.
If you call the police for a fender bender car accident, it is right with God to call the police in the situation of child sexual abuse. Society has a right to protect themselves and they must be registered with the state and nationally. If I’m able to love the person dispite his dangerous imperfection, good and well, but I wouldn’t rescue him from this important proceedure.
I’ve run into no problems with my attitude. Regards, M