Jehovah’s Witness Michael Jackson?
See my previous blog entry for a reading of Michael Jackson’s psychology from the perspective of a former Jehovah’s Witness.
Interesting article from Silent Lambs. In 1987, it was publicly announced that Michael Jackson was no longer a Jehovah’s Witness. However, the recent news articles say that he is.
Jesse Jackson is saying that although Michael Jackson is a Jehovah’s Witness, they pray together (a “nondenominational prayer”). That is SO not allowed! I’ve been in contact with a grandmother who was barred from seeing her grandchild simply because she brought him to a site where they were planning to build a church. Any other JW would be disfellowshipped for praying with an outsider.
As the article points out, the PR wing of the Watchtower Society has neither confirmed nor denied Michael Jackson’s status as a Jehovah’s witness. That’s interesting especially in light of the multiple child abuse scandals and the Society’s ludicrous policies concerning same. They even went out of their way to disfellowship any questioners or whistleblowers. Family members were urged to shun previous members, and made to choose between their loyalty to the organization and their love for family members. One wonders if he was in the JW database of thousands of molesters not reported to authorities.
The media has not yet delved into some of the background of Michael Jackson’s involvement with Jehovah’s Witnesses – and what effect this group may have had on him. On the other side, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not questioning his role in the organization. When one of the so-called “elect” – Firpo Carr – even functioned as Michael Jackson’s spokesperson in 2003, there wasn’t a peep about his working for a disfellowshipped JW – again, something strictly prohibited. So either special rules applied to Michael Jackson, or else he was a member in good standing. What seems incontrovertible is that if Michael Jackson is a current Jehovah’s Witness in good standing, he certainly has a special status strenuously denied the rank and file.
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82 comments
Hi – nice post. I know Firpo Carr. He was an instructor at the UOP in Fountain Valley two years ago when he said he was a JW. Then two years later, a friend of mine took the same class. Firpo deniged being a JW. I posted on it in my blog.
Deep Thoughts: Nutball Altert: Firpo Carr changed his religion
i don’t know why everyone hates on JWs! I’m not one, but I have many friends that are, and I’ve even attended their meetings! I can assure you that they are harmless people! my friends are extremely happy, and i can assure you that they have not been hurt in any way. this religion, as in any other, has people that may not take their beliefs as seriously as they should, and may even make them look bad, but then again, which religion doesn’t? Why not look at a few years ago, when all those Christian priests turned out to be gay and child molesters… why is that not such a big deal… how come everyone magically seemed to forget about those so quickly? Now, if Michael Jackson was a JW, then he should act like a JW; don’t depend on the organization for answers, look at his actions, and what he represents. All these mental cases that supposedly have arised from being in this cult is simply a personal issue. That is a rare possibility; everyone just seems to highlight the JW cases. If you would really take the opportunity to receive personal study from the JWs to reason with them and ask them your questions instead of posting it all over the internet, where you most likely will not receive clear answers, you would really truly understand the religion, instead of making false claims.
To the anonymous defender of the JWs: I find it hard to believe that you are not JW – you reason like one, and you use their standard lines.
I don’t hate JWs and I don’t make false claims. The “organization” doesn’t answer questions – try going to their website and see for yourself. I don’t need more personal book studies – I used to lead them myself and after leaving the JWs earned a PhD in Religion and Literature. I ask my questions of JWs when they visit me – but they will not comment on the Jackson case or on the predator files they keep(but don’t share with authorities).
In fact, the pedophiles in the Catholic church were an incredibly “big deal” – one of the reasons that JW victims felt that they could finally speak. Those who are interested in the details should check the Silent Lambs site.
Like all authoritarian groups, the JWs are destructive to individual human freedom, compassion and tolerance. They raise sheeple and they are proud of that. If you need that high level of regulation, alienation, and so on, no problem. My site is here only for those people who might like other information and options. In any case, the structure of the organization does not encourage spiritual growth or compassion in any authentic way – those who manage it are the exception not the rule. The JWs aren’t the worst by any means, but they are the group with whom I have had personal experience. I know and have used their methods, and am grateful that I am no longer the person they wanted me to be. I’m entitled to that judgment, and you are certainly free to disagree. You can assure me anything you want, but I assure you that I have a bit more information and experience to support my arguments than you do yours.
Still – thanks for the interesting presentation. I haven’t really seen all that much focus on JWs myself – usually it’s just jokes about the door to door service. People would have to be really invested to “hate” them – they just aren’t a significant enough group to bother hating…
Here, here! When I was in the organization, which was just three years ago which means that I spent 51 years in and around it. I found it was quite the opposite of what “alskdjfkd” says. The Watchtower org. is very good at pointing fingers both inside and outside of itself
I am a jehovah witness and i would never leave jehovah it is just plain wrong
We are jehovah witnesses and we would nerver leave jehovah it is plain wrong
Michael “left” the Woodland Hills, California, congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1987. One of the Elders there was persecuting him mercilessly. It was a little more like he was driven out.
Hi BuitseachRua,
I was wondering how you know about this Elder persecuting Michael, were you in the same congregation, I honestly feel Michael is very sensitive, and not understood, I also felt he needed encouragement not pointing the finger back then, I have met Prince and believe me I will defend him if I needed too, one needs to be following the footsteps and example of Jesus when one speaks to his fellowman, whether you are an elder or whom we are, at the same I appreciate the work the elders do for us at the Kingdom Hall , I know they work very hard ,you need to win them with all your heart, I believe Michael stills loves Jehovah we need to give him time, I believe he has been attending the meetings where he lives, he is a grown man and he is not alone now as an Entertainer who has been in the truth, today there is Prince and Larry Graham which I also met, a fine Brother a nice Brother indeed, Billy Ocean, George Benson and many others, if he does come back he has many friends celebreties he can get encouragement from, as a Jehovah’s Witness I love my brothers and sisters and I would be so happy, so happy if Michael Jackson would be reinstated I would like to be there and hug him warmly and welcome him back.
Lots of love to you all, and look forward to read your comments:
Amelie Jonquieres…….
HI. I understand that you all are questioning what is different. I do however have to point out why Michael is not a Jehovah’s witness ,a dn the alligations made up top.
First off, if an alligation is made of child molestationinthe hall, the elder will have to step out of the position untill the POLICE finish investigating the matter. if he is found guilty by the POLICE he will be disfellowships untill he corrects his lifestyle. this does not go against anything written in the bible. 1 Corinthians5 : 9-11
Second
michael does not live a lifestyle that is lived by many jehovah’s witnesses. if you look at us most live modestly, with moral standards that many of you praise. The bible tells us to marry in the lord and to keep persuing things pleasing to god. It also tells us that anyone who loves the world does not love Jehovah God. (1 john 2:15) Michael has dated many people that do not share his faith or the morals that God expected us to live by. While that sounds harsh to many you have to understand the long term benifits that come from having a companion that can spiritually strenghten you and give you bible based corection. (1 corinthians 7:36)
We have also seen many things that michale sings about such as sex between unmarried couples and the type of dancing. MOST JEHOVAHS WITNESSES WHO ARE IN GOOD STANDING IN THE CONGREGATIONS DO NOT ENGAGE IN THIS BEHAVIOR.
I Understand that this may sound harsh to many people but michael is not a jehovahs witness by any strech of the imagination. it is a well known fact in the congregation. All religions have standards and rules. Ours are clearly outlined in the bible and are not imposed by any other institution. For any other questions about jehovah;s witnesses i can be reached at secretslost22@hotmail.com.
thanks you.
Ok, the POLICE are usually not notified because of 1) the theocratic war strategy that allows them to argue that it isn’t their concern and 2) they would need two witnesses to the behavior before they would notify police. As evidence, they have yet to release the database of known pedophiles to the authorities.
Most JWs – who had not contributed that amount of cash – would be disfellowshipped. Remember, you can be disfellowshipped for smoking or having a beard.
However, notice that Michael has not been disfellowshipped.
How do you explain this?
Ok first of all you can’t be disfellowshiped for having a beard! It’s discouaged because we like to look very clean cut for our ministry but nobody gets in trouble for growing a beard. I have grown one myself several times. Michael Jackson was disfellowshipped after makeing the Thriller Video and has had no association with Jehovah’s Wittnesses what so ever since!! I have heard rumors that Prince was disfellowshipped but those are just the kind of rumors that go around. If Prince did have dealings with MJ’s music career it would be a business relationship and would not violate any rules or whatever. Jehovah’s Wittnesses handle child abuse cases about as fairly as I could imagine anyone doing, and do not keep a database of offenders as if such a nonlegal document would have any value in a court of law anyway. The posters here are critisizing our “harsh dealing with our congregation out of one side of their mouth while being upset why we don’t do anything out of the other side! I think this is a good indicator that a good balance of dicipline is in effect.
The people who are defending Michael Jackson keep saying he’s so sensitive, and he never had a childhood, and he like children because they don’t judge him. If they knew anything about psychology they would realize that they are describing the perfect profile of a child molester. The media’s portrayal of molesters as completely amoral, freakish, evil people blinds us to the fact that people we know who are otherwise good, kind, productive people could still be hurting our children.
MJ is not a JW!!!! I think its funny how people thin JW is a cult. They obviously dont know any better. Jehovah is cleaning out the congragations little by little. Wow, when the end is here, eveyone will finally know who he is. The prophecies are taking place as we speak.
I am not a Jehovah’s Witness – as of currently. But I disagree with a lot of what is being said against. I was raised a JW for most of my life. I left the organization when I was a teenager (doing stupid things, i.e. sex before marriage, experimenting with drugs, etc.) then went off to join the military. I completed my 4 years and am now back and about to start a family. I spent roughly 8 years out of the organization and, in that time, have learned many valuable life lessons. (The hard way.) The reason JW’s don’t comment on things about other people is because they value privacy. Every person is accountable for themselves and accountable to Jehovah. As an organization, it’s detrimental to the faith of the brothers and sisters to have someone whithin the organization that doesn’t hold the morals and laws that Jehovah has provided for everyone in the Bible. That’s the reason disassociations and disfellowships occur. It is not for public ridicule or for ‘pointing fingers’. The congregation does not deny anyone the right to attend the meetings or listen to the talks. They will also conduct Bible studies. Nothing the JWs practice is outside of the Bible. However, they also don’t consider themselves part of ‘this system’. They are not above the law and they respect the laws of the government as long as it doesn’t interfere with their faith in Jehovah. They are non-violent. They have never been ‘destructive to human freedom’. In fact, anyone wishing to engage themselves in the ‘freedom’s of humanity’ can do so at their own discretion. However, if it interferes with the governing laws of Jehovah, then they are not conducive to the organization. Therefore, you shouldn’t be a Jehovah’s Witness. Everyone made this huge deal about Clinton having sex outside of marriage because he’s a political figure. He represents the United States and the people. Jehovah’s Witnesses represent Jehovah. Our God. How bad does it look if Jehovah’s Witnesses preached about God’s word and talked about upholding his laws if they went around doing drugs and conducting themselves in an immoral manner? It would give Jehovah a bad name. That’s why they don’t partake in politics, in the military, or anything else that would dishonor Jehovah’s name. Even if it’s viewed honorable or acceptable by the right’s of ‘human freedom’. Jehovah said that this system belongs to Satan. He wants every person in this world to have the opportunity for salvation. He understands that people can become confused or stray away from His path. That’s why he’s giving everyone the opportunity to come back to Him. There isn’t a lot of time, though. The book of Revelations shows us that. It’s true that not every Jehovah’s Witnesses follows the laws to the letter. It’s true that there are Jehovah’s Witnesses that ’slip through the cracks’. But not every Jehovah’s Witness will find salvation when God’s kingdom arrives. They will have to answer to Jehovah. And He knows all! Can each and every one of you look deep inside and know that you are in the right place and living your lives the way the Creator intended? Each and every one of you has had parents at one point. Those that were fortunate enough to be raised by them were taught the values of life, the difference between right and wrong, and the necessities needed to survive in this life. Those who had loving parents were given guidelines and warnings because their parents didn’t want ‘bad things’ to happen to them. How much more do you think the Creator of all mankind would want what’s good for us? The Creator of everything that exists. We have the freedom to smoke cigarettes. But that doesn’t mean that they are good for us. We have the freedom to sleep with someone outside of marriage. But that doesn’t mean that conducting ourselves in illicit behavior is going to prevent us from catching STD’s. However, if every person waited held themselves to Jehovah’s law, there wouldn’t be STD’s, there wouldn’t be fear of dying from smoking. Diseases still exists, however, people would drastically reduce statistics by practicing abstinence and avoiding poisoning their bodies. Jehovah put these guidelines to protect us. Not to surpress us or to deny us of anything. We are all imperfect. Jehovah’s Witnesses are no exception. Yet, they try to conduct themselves in a way that most closely follows God’s laws. Status, money and power mean nothing in Jehovah’s eyes. We are all equal. He loves all of us. But it hurts Him whenever we turn our backs to Him. It’s easy to do in a world like this. But we have His promise that, on the day that He picked, He will wipe away death, sickness, fear, violence, natural disasters, and the only government that will be left standing is the one that He appoints. People should stop judging a religion based on who’s in it. They should judge it for what it stands for and what it teaches. I, for one, have realized that I made a serious mistake by turning my back on Jehovah. That’s why I’m trying my best to get reinstated and I want to raise my new daughter and soon-to-be wife in the congregation. I know I have a lot of mending to do in order to live my life in a manner that is favorable to Jehovah. But I know that He’s still giving me the opportunity to do so. Even if I’m not one to make it into God’s new kingdom, I’m going to try. I hope more people give the JWs a shot. I don’t regret it and I honestly believe that, out of all the other religions that I’ve studied, they may be on to something, after all. I’ve been to the Middle East. I fought the ‘Great War’ for freedom. There’s is nothing honorable in killing someone for a faith or a government. There is no honor in dying for a country that only cares about numbers. Do any of you honestly believe that, some day, your country will forgive your debt, your struggles, or your crimes? We are going through an economic depression. Do any of you think that the president is going to come to your house and help you survive? All I know is Jehovah has given us the ‘freedom’ to choose what side we want to be on. There’s only two. And only one of those leads to salvation. Even if we’re wrong with our faith, we all know we are all going to die, at some point. That’s a certainty. Why not play the odds for the small chance that we’re right.It could mean the difference between life and death.
If you only knew the truth, but thats ok. but one thing I do know is that organizaion is best known as ” White Wash Graves Full Of Dead Mans Bones!!!! Jehovah will deal with them also, they did do XMAS at one time. and in the year 2000 they finally put a person of color on the gov. body.
“RACIST.” If you only knew– check it for yourself.
My Jehovah bless you with the full truth about them.
It saddens me to see so many people lose faith. This isn’t a question of defending the name of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s about defending the name of Jehovah. I have seen many things in my life. I’ve seen death, I have seen suffering. I have been in war. I have been betrayed. I have been violated. None of that means anything to me. The only thing that I have found strength and comfort in has been the Bible. I don’t claim to have a full grasp of everything that is taught in it. But every time that I read it I gain a closer understanding of how Jehovah thinks and how he feels. It is through His word that I can get closer to him. When Jesus came to Earth, he did not judge a man by what religion he followed. He did not judge a man by the deeds of his past. He judged by the contents of their hearts. We are faced with great tribulations. Deeds are not the defining factor in the End of Days. The defining factor is in the condition of the heart and the loyalty to Jehovah. Injustices occur all the time. Look at Jesus’ account. Even the Jews that killed him and pierced him had a chance for salvation. (Read the account on Acts 2:36-42) In my experience, I have learned that every person out there should realize that we are all Bible students. There are those who have a stronger grasp of the Bible than others, but no one out there knows, to a full capacity, the contents of the Holy Scripture. I feel much more rejoiced when a church or an organization changes their structure to follow more of the guidelines of the Bible than when they change it to be more accepting to society or to the masses. Race has no bearing in the kingdom of Jehovah. The United States had slaves. I don’t see anyone refusing their American citizenship because of something that occured over 2 centuries ago. Whatever religion people choose to follow, it should not be because of what other people are doing whithin it. It should be because of the values and discipline that it teaches. I don’t have anything against the Catholic religion but I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of the things they teach. I have even met devout Catholics who try to live their lives whithin the guidelines that the Bible offers. And I respect that. Funny thing is, a lot of them don’t agree with the way their church handles matters, either. (Believe me, I lived in Italy for two years.) There are Jehovah’s Witnesses out there who take advantage of the generosity and love that the brothers and sisters exhibit and live their lives in secret. Doing atrocities and bearing false witness to the name of Jehovah. Unfortunately, Satan’s grasp on this system is far reaching. Not every Jehovah’s Witness follows the laws of God’s word. But it’s impossible for any man or woman to truthfully judge them for the contents of their hearts. It’s impossible to foretell what destiny awaits. Some may change. Most will not. Only Jehovah reserves the right to seek vengeance. It is only He who will right the injustices done to His people. To point fingers and judge is trying to impose on the judgement that He has reserved. Even the isrealites that Jehovah delivered from slavery, through Moses, began to lose faith. They couldn’t take the hardship of traveling through the desert before they reached the pormised land and started to lose faith in Jehovah. They even made a false idol and commited immoralities. But Jehovah didn’t lose patience with His people. After all he did for them! It was Moses who was denied entrance into the promised land. And he was the chosen messenger. But he spoke against Jehovah. The people who know the truth and turn their backs on it are judged harder than those who don’t understand. From what I’ve seen, many things have changed. And they will continue changing. Just the same as our lives should reflect our faith and devotion to Jehovah. We can’t be perfect right from the start. Our faith is like a car. Even with perfect alignment, we must constantly straighten and turn the wheel to stay on course. Should we fall asleep, we most certainly will crash. If we lose respect or take it from granted, we will get hurt. We must constantly tune the engine and replace parts when it they get worn or strained. The more practice we get at driving the easier it is to stay on course. The more maps we study, the easier it is for us to find our way and the easier it is to prepare from obstacles and surprises that come out on the road. Some may get lost, but if we put our faith in the Bible and study it diligently, it will guide us back to the right road to reach our destination. None of us know how long or how many miles it’s going to take. But we do know that, even if we expire, if we’re on the right road, Jehovah will pick us up and tow us the rest of the way. But we have to stay on course! Judging others for their faith is the same as fixing your car. It’s easy to pay money to have a mechanic fix your vehicle. But you can’t guarantee that he truly fixed the problem or that it won’t happen again. Your faith is the most valuable possession. It’s above life and food and everything else. Because that’s your ticket to salvation. If you learn to fix your own vehicle you will learn how to prevent possible breakdowns or to prepare when you know they’re coming. If you know your vehicle inside and out, you know what obstacles to avoid and roads you can take. In a religion or congregation they teach you to count on one another. If you feel down or tired, let someone help guide you. But make no mistake! Just because you trust the person in front of you does not mean that you should close the Bible and follow them blindly. How do you know they’re not falling asleep behind the wheel and leading you down the wrong road? How many times have one of you had a passenger who swore they knew where they were going only to find out that they were lost? Just because you have fellow brothers and sisters driving alongside of you does not mean that you are allowed to get careless. And it certainly does not mean that you can count on them or blame them if you all end up getting. The Bible is your map to salvation. Use it often. Forget about your fellow drivers. Wave, encourage them, honk your horn if they start to drift asleep, but never blame anyone but yourself for losing faith! Remember, not every road leads to salvation. Even if it feels like the right path.
Ok…um… Keeping on topic – with the use of paragraphs – would be great!
Jairo, your main point is a good one, but misses one important aspect: the evidence of the fruits of the spirit.
I agree that following someone – even the governing body of the Watchtower Society – is not a guarantee that your relationship with the cosmos/God is in good at-tunement. Sometimes the rules you learn as a child are great when you have not learned how to navigate complexity, but they have to be modified as you grow and see things a little differently. As you gain more experience and wisdom, you realize that not all rules apply in every case. For example, at my house there is a little boy that has learned the rules of honesty and truthfulness very well, but that has yet to be tempered with the skills of timing and diplomacy.
Love God with all your heart, and let each find their own path to God. God does not need a corporation of publishers to bring his people close. It’s not your job to judge others as JWs do, according to your bible map. Show compassion and caring for others – as you would wish it for yourself. Do not elevate the traditions of men (even Watchtower men) over the dictates of kindness that Jesus talked about. If you have not love, you have nothing.
That’s fine. And to an extent, I agree. But it’s to a very minor extent. Keeping with the topic, I believe the bigger issue has to do with the defamation of the JW’s. It was expressed that each should be free to find their own path to God. Isn’t the slander of one religion and discouragement to persue it preventing people from having that as an option? Each should be allowed to make their own choice. Just because some people chose to leave a religion, doesn’t mean that they should speak against it. I believe the term for that is apostasy. And we should all know what God’s view on apostates is. (Jeremiah 8:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
I may be young, but I’m not an idiot. I know that some of you believe that you’re doing the right thing. But the interpretations of some does not prove to be law. Jehovah never said, “here’s My ten commandments. Pick and choose whichever suits you.” Devotion to God should not be eclectic. Posting articles such as “Another Jehovah’s Witness dies for refusing a blood transfusion” send the wrong message to people. The Bible is very clear over Jehovah’s view on blood. Acts 15:29 says that we should abstain from blood. 1 Samuel 14:31-35 states the account of when the Isrealites were exhausted and began to eat meat with blood in it. Saul corrected them and told them not to SIN against God by eating blood. In all the accounts that the Bible mentions, never once does it state that in case of emergencies or life and death situations it’s okay to partake in blood. It’s the single most sacred thing to Jehovah. I praise those JW’s for standing up for their belief and faith. And I’m sure that Jehovah will reward them in the ressurection. Remember, this life was given to us by Jehovah. Our bodies do not belong to us. That is why the Bible speaks against contaminating the body.
As for everyone’s freedom to choose their own path, I applaud them, if they can do so while following all of God’s laws. Jehovah gave us the Bible and the example of Jesus to do so properly. But like I said, very narrow is the road to salvation. But God is not partial. He’s not going to save JUST Jehovah’s Witnesses. Those that put faith in him and put faith in Jesus have the opportunity to obtain salvation. It says so on Acts 10:34 and 35. Most of you will not listen to me. Which is fine. I’m in no position to preach to anyone. I have many wrongs I must make right in my life. But I hope that those who truly love Jehovah will take the time to do a deep examination of themselves and remove those things that may hold them back from His path. I’m trying to do so myself.
P.S. This isn’t judgement. I don’t know the level of faith that resides within each one of you. This is just some friendly advice from an outsider’s perspective. The true answers lie in God’s words. Read them. And if something doesn’t make sense, ask Jehovah in prayer. Don’t look to the internet for answers or consolation. Satan’s grasp is far-reaching. He will do whatever he can to confuse and distort your faith.
There is a a significant difference between defamation and criticism. I am a critic of some of their policies and attitudes because they are so destructive to individuals and families. I’m allowed to do that, sorry!
Everyone is of course free to examine their own religious path. Jehovah’s Witnesses actively encourage non-JWs to do so in all of their introductory literature, and they are subject to the same questions they ask others to inspect.
“Another Jehovah’s Witness dies for refusing a blood transfusion” is the fact of the matter. I really don’t care what message JWs want to send or not send, since I am no longer a JW. If blood is so sacred, why do you eat blood? Kosher meat is drained of its blood, but you do not hold to the dietary standard from which your quotations come. Even the most orthodox Jews (who know the Torah better than JWs do) do not refuse transfusions.
You can say that God will save others than JWS, but JWs do not believe this. I’ve had this kind of conversation before.
I agree with you that asking for guidance in prayer is a good thing to do. However, anyone should feel free, I think, to read and assess – from books or the internet or anywhere else.
Thinking is not against my religion anymore.
Im a jeovah witnesses, and i love jehovah, and if we dont take transfusion its because the blood is sacre and we may love jehovah I LOVE YOU JEHOVAH I LOVE YOU
Just because some people chose to leave a religion, doesn’t mean that they should speak against it. I believe the term for that is apostasy. And we should all know what God’s view on apostates is. (Jeremiah 8:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
Jairo, before I respond to that statement let me tell you a little about myself. I spent 31 years as a witness and 13 as a pioneer giving assembly parts as well as moving to “where the need was great” I have not just left the organization and become negative and defamitory. I LIVED the life of a witness giving everything to it for many years, so I believe I have some basis to discuss this. The Society has misrepresented many things to the people in the organization. One of which is the true meaning of the word apostasy. It has the meaning of once being a follower of Christ and then turning away and denying him. To question what a group of men determines to be the ONLY possible interpretation of a biblical matter is FAR FAR FAR from apostasy. In fact the Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for this very thing, for “reasoning on the scriptures.” There is nothing wrong with knowledge of your own organization. If you wanted to know all facts about a corporation you would research it from all angles not just read offical press releases. The same should apply to beliefs. There is nothing scary about examination unless there is something to hide.
I was born and raised a witness. I am now 28 and have been disfellowshipped for dating a man that was not of the same faith after my divorce of 10 years to a physically, mentally and emotionally abusive “witness”. I dont have anything personal against people that are witnesses that act as true christians. My problem is with the ones that de-fame Gods name by calling themselves Jehovah’s witnesses and not living like Christians, and those humans in the congregation that judge others (we all know the scriptures: “do not judge others that you may not be judged by the all mighty”) Just live and let live. To each their own, we will all individually take a stand before God by ourselves so everyone should live like it and stop JUDGING! Peace, love…. By the way… RIP Michael!
I saw a jw website that was talking about his death, as if they care, they shun and bash anyone that stopped being a jw…i know from experience, my mom is a jw and her friends cant even look me in the face…they even made my mom go against me and finally she snapped out of it and realizes i\’m her daughter and she should continue a relationship with me…sad!!! and by the way they force kids to get baptized…I was not even 10 and my parents said i had to get baptized so why put me down after i was able to speak out and say i\’ve had it…that wasnt until i was 17 and my dad left (haha being a JW, and one of the supposable 144,000) …..hypocrites…. there was constant abuse in the home especially if we didnt study the watchtowers and read the bible constantly, never allowed to make friends because everyone was pagan, would get my butt beat for that too…ah loong story, but just to show a bit about how hypocritical these people are
Pedophiles not reported to the authorities? Why, because there isn’t any! All congregations get letters all the time telling the elders if anyone has ever been, even before they were a JW, accused, reported or had anything to do with something like pedophiles or rapes or anything, even as a youngster, they can not be and elder or servant. They have to wait to be in the new system. They still can change their life and serve God but they can not have any authority. That is your answer.
Strange to read words from people who, despite their learning, decide never to ACT (door-to-door publishing the good news); instead, they deal with entirely unimportant matters: participating in WARS (sic!), homicide, messing around with barren philosophies and thus considering time valueless. Wish you success in doing so… Tomorrow you may be dead.
All I know is that JWs never participate in violent shit or things that are bad in God’s eyes. Most wars started because of religion differences
Wow VirusHead, obviously with you being disfellowshiped it has caused you to feel so negative towards JW. The embarrassment, anger, hurt etc that it may have caused you. The comment “thinking is not against my religion anymore” you know that once you turned your back on Jehova nothing has been as great as it was when you were by his side. The advice that is given to us by the elders is for our own good. You can choose to accept it or you can choose to take a seperate path…obviously the opposite path will lead you to nothing good. I hope you wake up and realize which side you should be on. People that create these sites do this to create a lot of bickering back and forth and in reality we do not need to sit here and defend what we know is right (you know what is right, you are just lying to yourself and you know it). All JW STAY OFF THIS SITE OR ANY OTHER SITE WITH NEGATIVITY TOWARDS JW’S! I hope this will be the last JW comment made on this site or any other. Jairo, you couldnt have said it any better, thank you.
Actually, I wasn’t disfellowshipped. I left on my own, in disgust. The god of the JWs is a caricature of God.
I myself was raised as a JW but never actually was baptized. I dont know why but it seems all the children who were involved back then have problems. I dont think it good to make a child feel so different than everyone else. it causes some type of mental problem
Jairo. Wonderful words. Keep studying. I, too am coming back into the Truth. There is no other way. To all the detractors, if you must quote the Scriptures at least be accurate. Please do not say I am a Jehovah’s Witness-the grammatically correct way is I am ONE OF jehovah’s Witnesses. Learn before you speak and knock JWs.
Saying “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses” is not a matter of grammar but of the preferences of the “organization.” Grammatically, you are a member of the group of Jehovah’s Witnesses, therefore you are a Jehovah’s Witness.
this comment is to virushead, i just hope that when jehovahs day gets here… your on the right side,dont be fooled by satan,dont let him blind your mind as hes doing now. Be on Jehovahs side,we dont depict him as a caricature,we depict him as the way the bible sais he is….loving. Your in a bad state of mind right now,if he’s loving and so is Jesus,i want to be as well,turn your life around,stop gettin on these stupid sites and slandering jehovahs name,he gave you your life,it’s his. Respect him.If someone did you wrong in the hall at one time or another,turn the other cheek,jehovah will take care of the problem in time. I hope you heard some of this,i hope you have enough sense to know that without even knowing you,i do care.
Someone once told me something that ive carried around with me for years when i got down.. ” The individuals that are inside the religion of Jehovahs witnesses are’nt perfect,But Jehovahs religion is” Jesus said “when one of the sheep gets away from the rest,pray that he finds his way back” I will.
Thank you for your kind intentions, David. I don’t slander God, but I think the corporation does. I’m not in a bad state of mind at all, but I can see why you would project that I was. God’s day is every day. I’m praying for the lost sheep in the JWs that the Spirit finds them – even there. With God, nothing is impossible.
Michael Jackson personally left Jehovah’s Witnesses many years ago …. and although his mother and one sister may or may not be a Witness…that is completely immaterial.
He rejected Jehovah’s Witnesses, and left them and Jehovah and Christian principles for the lifestyle and all strangeness that money could buy.
If he has a JW funeral, it will show that the rightous standards that one might reasonably expect of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a sham.
My best friend’s son died in a motorcycle accident, years after rejecting the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and his memorial service was NOT held in a Kingdom Hall because of that. He was considered a “man of the Nations”, not a person consecrated to God.
If he gets a “Witness Funeral” it will show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are no better than Christendom, who has spent the last 1700 years in cannibalistic warfare, and from whom no one really expects anything spiritual .. only “politics as usual”.
Tom.Rook@Technik-SA.US
i dont know how true it is about micheal being a JW but i dont think that he will get a JW funeral because he left jehovah just for fame and worthless things that he never really needed!!!!!
I know the teachings of JW’s and it’s mind control! Nowhere in the Bible does it say to follow the writings of an organization! Nowhere does it say to follow an organization and let them judge you! Their spreading their misinterpriations of scriptures and teaching that all other christians are under satan’s wrap! That’s sick and that’s my problem with the Watchtower not Jehovah! If the molestor in the congregation that hurt Micheal has rights of privacy…that’s sick!!!!!! One last thing….the Watchtower is full of false prophets!! I’m not a hater of any religion….just don’t appreciate the negative views JW’s place upon other Christians. We are not Satan!
If Michael was disfellowshipped (vs. rejecting the teachings) from Jehovah’s Witnesses, his mother and sisters, reported to be Witnesses, would not be allowed to speak to him or visit him. I have been waiting to hear in the media whether his family did visit him (other than Janet). Certainly being cut off from his family could not have helped his fragile mind. Also, do you think maybe Katherine wants to raise Michael’s children so she can bring them up in “The Truth”?
Well I am currently disfellowshipped and I can tell you a think of two, unless you keep your dirt secret no one in the organization knows (except Jehovah) what you are doing. No one keeps a database because wicked deeds always seem to come afloat. It happened to me after 9 months of covering over sin it floated to the surface and I was left with no choice but to fess up and not living up to the bible-based standards simply leads to disfellowshipping.
Also many things in the past happened much more swiftly, as far as I knew MJ was disfellowshippped as a result of his Thriller video, because at the time it portrayed the occult as a fun harmless thing. I cannot tell you what really happened, what he said (since disfellowshipping happens after a few sittings with the offender) and what the circumstances were. But the truth is around that time there were some really strict rules about conduct and a considerable amount of lack of knowledge as prophesied in the bible, it simply says that the \”Light of the truth will get brighter and brighter\”. So to those who stumbled and were disgusted by the changes (around 1975-1980\’s) are lacking in faith in the bible. The organization doesn\’t write rules, I have never seen an application of anything other than what is in the scripture.
Whether MJ is or not is not something I would/should know, seeing as I do not belong to his original congregation nor to the one he may have visited after, if he did. The announcement is made to the congregation where the person gathers and/or where he was disfellowshipped. bottomline is news went around he turned Muslim, I highly doubt that if he really did so he could still remain a JW, if he ever did work towards reinstatement.
I myself am looking to be reinstated after 3 years, because I have had time to reflect on my wrongful course of action, it takes time to accept the discipline and to value the protection the standards given by Jehovah from the bible give you (Like no sex before marriage, it really protected me to avoid STD\’s and unwanted pregnancies other youngsters of my age who fully ignored the rules have had some very sad results and hopefully someday they too get to see the folly in their way and return to the path that will lead to life everlasting).
And I am not brainwashed, no one put a knife to my neck, these are things I really pondered on in my 3 years of disfellowshipping.
One last thing, JW\’s do not put a negative view on Christendom as a previous poster said. The bible talks about false religion and her misleading ways, how she is full of the blood of the innocent and how all the meek of the earth who want to server God Jehovah should get out of her, the great harlot of false religion. It\’s some very deep biblical prophecy that plainly shows that we should choose life and change course. It really is not about religion but a clean standing before God, and to him you also need to congregate with others of like-mind who follow his commandments from the bible. If you concluded that mainstream Christianity has unclean practices you have the responsibility before God to ACT and flee. But you can only conclude by studying his word and seeking his aid by praying for Holy spirit, being humble in heart and having Faith in HIS provisions. Those who were former Jw\’s who chose to leave because they were stumbled need to realize that Jehovah is still the true God and he still guides his faithful ones and that they need to reconcile their doubts with Him and not by pointing a finger to other humans, because then they are just like the parable of the man who points at the straw in his brother\’s eye and overlooks the rafter in his own eye. Can you see when you are blinded by your own imperfection? Be the judge yourself.
And I just remembered, it is impossible that in 2000 any true Jw\’s were celebrating Christmas because it has been instructed for over 40 years (My father was born in the truth in \’62 and NEVER celebrated Christmas with any JW\’s I ever met). The simple line of reasoning goes back to getting out of false religion, the bible accounts of Jesus never say what his birthdate is and he said to his followers to commemorate His death as it marked the redemption of ALL humankind who would benefit himself by doing all that is written. Jesus did not instruct any other festivities. Now the early first century Christians after some years in the first century allowed discord and other problems to open a way for unscriptural practices, amongs which the Christianization of the Harvest Festival to the Sun God of the time in Rome, which started on the 25th of December. (Look it up). This was then re-labeled as Christmas. Many other celebrations and Holidays have similar backgrounds and are rejected by Jw\’s around the world based on their bible-trained conscience. It is encouraged based on the bible, but not dictated!
In short, ladies and gents of the jury who will rebuke the Jw\’s as a people in faith, open your bible, read it ponder and test as to the truth of these things judge for yourselves and become wise or not… but only Jehovah will be your judge, no one else and this counts for MJ in life, seeing he has died, he might have a better hope than us… because death is what sin pays and he has paid for his sins already, and whatever his heart condition was only Jehovah knows and so it is far beyond anyone to be able to say what will or will not happen to him.
It’s really a wonderful opportunity to be called one of Jehovah’s servant. I’ve been wondering, if Michael Jackson never left the Jehovah as a faithful servant, he would still be leaving and not dead. May Jah be with us all
I cannot believe that the parents could get custody of the children, given MJ’s accounts of just how abusive his father was. Will the siblings stand up?
I’m with you VirusHead I’m suprised that Jacko’s parents got custody of his kids especially if Jacko’s dad really did abuse him.
I’ve been hearing on the radio at my job that the kids are with children of their own age if they are going to be raised as JWs then I hope that congration has plently of kids there as I doubt they will be allowed to have non-JW friends. I remember that always being discouraged in the Watchtower & Awake magazines.
Take this Young People Ask question that was in the last JW mag I have ever read http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050722a/article_01.htm
I only wish that all JW would one day realize that Jesus is indeed God. That is the premise of the entire Bible. Lord Jesus was there from the beginning and will forever be, Amen!
Zack or anyone who wants to answer: I hope you don’t mind me asking this but is there anything in the bible to back up what you said about Jesus being God?
As the idea of the trinity has never made much sense to me even before joining the JWs. In fact this lack of belief in the trinity was what stopped me going to another church as I didn’t want to just go thourgh the motions.
Thanks
Pandora Moon
Wow what a great place to express your feelings. I have a view points and anyone is welcome to give me some advise. First of all I was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I was baptized and then life went down from there. I was sick in and out of the hospital. Hardly any witnesses came to see me. I had more friends from school and employers come see me. Then I found out my mom was having an affair and my parents got divorced. The elders told my dad there needs to be definite proof because my dad found out about it in her journal. Well he ended up having to put cameras in our house to get proof. Well she got Df’d my parents split. I was told i wasn’t suppose to talk about why my mom was disfellowshipped and why my parents were getting divorced. I was i think 16. Mom had court visitation every other weekend but the elders didn’t want me “talking” to her. I mean yeah shes my mom but i wasn’t suppose to go out of my way to talk to her basically. Then I graduated high school. A week later my best friend from school was in a car accident. She wasn’t a witness but a good smart girl. I sat in the hospital for two days. The doctors even asked me and our other friend what we wanted to do (pull the plug or leave her as a vegetable) After a long talk and prayer we decided to let her go. She was too bright to leave in that condition. I still remember what she looked like laying in that hospital bed after she passed. I had a really hard time dealing with her death. Since she wasn’t a witness i was told by people at the congregation it was inappropriate to talk about her as a friend. That she wasn’t a good association. Well I understand the whole not being a part of the world but give me a break. She was a human being and my friend. I grew so distant from everyone because no body would help me. We had hospitality at our house almost once a month but no body called to have my father over for dinner after my mom left. I didn’t know how to deal with anything at the time so i started hanging out with friends from school and those who knew my friend. This lead to smoking pot. For those view minutes i forgot about the pain and was “happy”. I cleaned up and went to the elders for help but was disfellowshiped myself. That was five years ago almost. Since then i drifted deeply into drugs. however after a while the pain was still there. So i got clean and started to deal with everything. I have so much pain. I was molested by a jehovah’s witnesses when i was eight. It took me 11 years to admit to my mother. I did tell the elders but my then the kid moved away. I don’t know what happened with it but i don’t have proof after 11 years. Just the emotional scars. Also when i was born my dad called my grandma to tell her and she hung up on him. I have always felt like no body cared about me in my family. I’m not saying that all Jehovah’s witnesses are bad. I believe what the bible teaches. My problem is Jesus taught to love your neighbor and support the congregation however where was everyone when i needed help. When i was sick, when my mom left, when my friend died. I was alone and lost. I didn’t know what i wanted or what i really believed at 16. I wish i could take it all back, my sins. But i know i’m stronger now and i can deal with things more. My biggest thing is i need answers. If it is such a loving religion and congregation sometimes they have a funny way of showing it. Also some of the books are so outdated. Like the young people ask book. I mean I know alot of jehovah’s witnesses are sheltered and don’t know whats out there. Thats the problem. They almost need to write a book by someone who was in the world that came back or something. So they have that other side of perspective. That way the young ones are more prepared for the pressures of the world. I thought i would never smoke and do drugs. But man it was so easy to start with what i was going through at the time. No where to turn. I tried talking to the elders and people in the congregation but they didn’t know how to react or know what to say. Its not common for people to get divorced or have affairs. As far the michael jackson. I don’t know if he was JW or not. However i will say that only Jehovah knows who will be resurrected or not. He is the only one who reads hearts and minds and know us better then we know ourselves. Jehovah’s witnesses need to build each other first and stop worrying about what THEY think about other people like if he was a JW or not. Its not up to us but Jehovah. JW’s can only spread the word of god and leave it in Jehovah’s hands. if anyone has any thoughts on my situation or what i went through please email me at efletchr_2000@yahoo.com
Amen to what Zack said. Jesus is God. He came to me in the oddest of places and told me so. the Holy Spirit has shown VHead out of false teaching and a cult. I only wish people in denominations would look at the doctrines, and their lifestyles and compare that to what the Holy Spirit says. In the beginning was the Word. It will remain what it is no matter how twisted anyone makes it. Much suffering was casued in Michaels life and his siblings lives simply becasue of the false teachings of authorities that distorted the true God, (2nd Peter ch.2) Jesus Christ.
I truly belive Michael was part of the invisible church no matter how his religion shunned him. God has made every soul,made Michael\’s beautiful soul that brought so much happiness, and desires that all men come to him.
I was born and raised witnesses.for me JW very special and many people like JW.
Michael Jackson was never baptised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. You can’t be disfellowshipped if you’ve never been baptized.
I know family of his in Kansas…he’s NEVER BEEN BAPTIZED AS ONE OF JEHOVAHS WITNESSES. He DID go door-to-door as a child and before Thriller; however, after that he fell away.
Joe Jackson is not and has never been a witness. Michael’s mother is and the children used to attend the hall with her. This doesn’t make someone a servant of Jehovah.
Just because someone ATTENDS a Kingdom Hall doesn’t make them one of Jehovah’s Witnesses any more than someone attending a Catholic church makes someone Catholic.
If your child is being molested…it’s YOUR job to report this to the authorities. If a parent decides to not do this…this is their fault, I’m sorry. If it were my child, I would report it…no questions. I do believe that is where the parents hold responsibility for their own children. I think any accusation against the society for “hiding” this is completely FALSE and twisted. If this happened in my Kingdom Hall…I well know how it would be handled. Trust me when I say that it would NOT be covered over at ALL. I know firsthand.
What you are claiming here is inaccurate on many levels. See, for example:
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2007/05/13/jws-protect-abusers-and-p edophiles
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2007/05/10/jw-sex-abuse-cases-settle d-with-gag-order
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2008/07/26/jws-in-the-news
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/10/21/watchtower-society-must-p rovide-abuse-records-to-court
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2007/05/06/jehovahs-witnesses-in-the -news
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/06/28/jehovahs-witness-bethelit e-videotaped-boys-at-ohare
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/11/17/update-on-jws-in-the-news
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2007/08/24/serial-child-predator-jw- walks
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2007/12/04/jehovahs-witnesses-in-the -news-roundup
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/06/28/another-jehovahs-witness- pedophile-convicted
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/04/01/jw-pedophile-on-most-want ed-list
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2006/03/05/ex-jw-rebuttal-to-a-jehov ahs-witness
http://www.virushead.net/vhrandom/2005/02/20/jw-chronicles-predators-j ustice-help
Well, I respect your opinions, but I must say that I really appreciate people who are JW because they tried to live as God says, not what other human orders. Of course, no one is perfect. Remember they are also humans, so if one of them makes a mistake, it doesn’t mean the whole group is the same. God is only one, and Jesus is the only one who we can consider a model. So let’s try to follow His example.
About Michael Jackson? I’ve always wondered if he really became a JW, I’ve just found opinions without a clear evidence. Anyway he was also a human. God is the only one who can judge us. Let Him do His job.
I’d like to receive your comments. This is my msn: joriv70@hotmail.com
—-
I liked most of the comments, specially of these people that I listed below, I hope we can keep in touch. Please feel free to add me, my email is above.
Greetings to:
Marissa
Tom Rook
eca
Dorcas
freedom
Jairo
secretslost
daniele & romayne
BuitseachRua
and some others …
I am sure that the JW are serious people and that there are few people to practice their faith to turn someone else bad. But we must realize that MJ faced both different and harder considerations other than we “ordinary” people did. His mother’s faith and his own attempt to satisfy his own ideals and the other ones that were in the Assembly while he had a father who demanded hard achievements in entertainment world says a lot about the contradictions he must have known in himself. We may still hope that he experienced happiness and harmony in life through the music that gave so much joy to so many. We must try not to judge and to ensure the good he tried to achieve through his music.
That’s so funny! Ok, JWs meet up here!
JWs don’t have a ceremony for non-JWs.
“Tuesday morning the Jackson family gathered for a private ceremony at Forest Lawn, where a Jehovah’s Witness service was conducted by Jackson’s cousin, Wendell Hawkins.”
Having attended funeral services given by Baptists, UCC, Methodists, Catholic, one southern demination that featured speaking in tounges and tambourines, three given by JW elders and one where everyone present was invited to share their thoughts about the deceased for three minutes which became a free-for-all.
The services given by the elder seemed gentlest on the grief stricken families. One was given at a Kingdom Hall that Great Aunt “Ada” was a witness for 40 years.
The other two were for a Great Aunt and cousin who were not witnesses. Because they were not witnesses the services could not be at the Kingdom Hall and as far as I know there were no other issues. My Great Aunt liked the service her sister “Ada” had and asked her husband and children to have the same elder give her service.
My cousin was not religous at all. She died broke with no insurance and no way to pay for a funeral her daughters contacted my Great Aunt’s “Ada’s” congregation and an elder volunteered his services.
The UCC service was tasteful the Catholic service in Latin as requested by that cousin and only a few family members who studied latin could follow along with the mass. The Baptist preacher seemed to be yelling and had a back up band. The other southern denomination had people praising, hollering and getting the holy ghost the funeral seemed to happen around these events. The share your feelings service was the worst as no one who got up to share including his wife had anything nice to say about man who died.
Just my perspective and Michael’s family probably selected a service that would be gentle on his mother.
I think they had a JW funeral because his parents were JWs and I don’t see any record that he was disfellowshipped either. However, I don’t really know how the decisions were made.
I know his mom and sister are witnesses. The Jackson family movie produced by one of the brother’s, Marlon I believe, made it clear that the father was not a witness. I have also never read that he was anywhere.
My comments about why they selected the service were speculation. I am sure it was probably because of his mother’s devotion and possibly to have a gentle service for the kids.
Well – they had a ceremonial public one, too.
I am shocked. How come the family takes decisions to show Michaels children already going to the JWs in L.A: I’m really sad. I’m not having anything against religion and people having faith in God but for now I just think the children is used for giving JWs publicity and to give JW more status as an established Christian organisation. It’s sad, so sad, especially for the children who is not even used to live in this way.
I came into the truth at the age of 12 and was a JW until the age of 25. I have moved on and have not associated with them since 1988, not because I don’t believe or love Jeohova, -I do- I just feel that there is indeed a lot of hipocrisy and “hollier than thou” attitudes within the organization. I grew up in the late 70’s like MJ and for sensitive people like myself & MJ the truth can be elating yet devastating. As such, I understand the effect this must have had on MJ, just like it had on me. Like you efletcher 2000, where was the organization when my dear father passed away and only a couple of brothers bothered to came to the funeral when he was a full fledge JW? Before passing he had not been able to attend the meetings regularly as before because he had been sooo sick and in and out of hospitals for almost one year, and for that he was shunned and ignored in death! He was in good standing, he was a wonderful human being and alone even in death however when he was alive brothers where at our place left and right every time there was a party or a barbaque when times were good, but when we needed the organization it was not there for us & this is not the example set by Christ…where were the brothers and sisters, when my mother who could not work was widowed at the age of 50 with two children to take care of? With a home to pay for? Didn’t the apostle say” To take care of your widow”s ?
We were ignored…totally, my mother was a JW and so was I, both baptized and in good standing, and where was the organization again I ask? Like MJ I felt totally abandoned, lonely, sad, desilusioned & hurt – I had so given of myself to the organization. I spent my youth going to meeting, district assemblies, pioneering, controlled and sheltered from the outside world, no sex, no boyfriends, nothing. I had no coping skills was totally alone left to take care of deeply affected and depressed mother and younger sister, that when I finally met someone that I really loved at the age of 30, I was so naive that I did not see what I was getting into – I don;t think Michael did either, I got into this horrible marriage and “horriblier” divorce. I have never had the necessary social skills to be able to survive in this cold, cold world. I feel I have a lot in common with MJ and his fate; I don;t feel I belong in this world so full of hate and wickedness, I don’t feel I am meant to be here, yet I feel that I am not meant to be at the KH either….I don’t trust the organization anymore which is sad, because I truly love Jehova – and many times I cry and beg HIM for direction. I am not perfect and I have sinned but I pray that HE will take me into consideration on judgement day, yet I feel that the organization, it’s constraints and some of it’s members hypocritical stands derrailed me,(and others I am sure) and I feel that if I went back I could not live with the shunning – even though I don’t believe I have been disfellowedship – it would kill me and maybe that is what killed MJ as well with a little help from his pills. I am sure they where the only way for him to get away from the pain. Since leaving the organization, I have fallen in and out of deep depressions at time necessitating having to take medications for a long time, but I have not become addicted yet, I can understand how someone with additional hurts and pains could easily develop them. I hope Jehova will remember me and will accept me despite my failings – I would love to tell him in a different realm how much I love him despite the fact I have left, and maybe, just maybe one day I will be able to meet MJ and tell him how much I loved him too, no matter what and that somehow I felt his pain too! As for MJ being a true JW, I knew a sister in my congregation that knew him, for a time she went to his congregation in CA and she only spoke good things about him. He had pioneered several times and back then, you could not be a 90 hour monthly pioneer unless you were baptized, believe me, I was one at the time; so I am sure he was baptized. RIP MJ, it is between you and Jah, it is for NOBODY to judge the condition of your heart and why you did what you did; thanks for the artistic genius you left behind – it would be nice if JW could at least loud you on how much you gave to humanity rather than criticizing you on your actions or weakness. Thanks for hearing me out – feel free to email me @ alfablue162@yahoo.com. May Jah Almighty God Bless you all!
Connie, I love your post… I too was raised and baptised a witness along with my 2 sisters and we all have many many emotional and trust issues caused by “brothers” and that male driven organization. I have not been associated since the late 80’s and have struggled with my feelings of guilt and remorse over that. I was a 4th generation witness that started with my great-grandfather on my mother’s side, my father is not a witness. So it is not an easy thing to leave. My mother has not shunned me or my sisters but the rest of her family has. I also feel that Michael Jackson was a full fledged witness at some point, and I feel that his pain and agony probably stems from that. A lot of his phrasing in his words and music was too witnessy for a non witness. He was a gentle and caring soul and hopefully Jehovah has looked into his heart and seen that!!! I also had dreams of speaking to MJ and letting him know that there were people out there like him, who were hurt by the organization, but that never came to be. It can be overcome and you can still love Jehovah and even worship him without the heavy burden of the organization. Good Luck to you… (even though we don’t believe in luck!!!)
Die – thank u so much for your kind words. For years I have felt alone, abandoned, guilty, sad and in despair over my decision to leave the organization. Your words brought tears to my face; I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I have tried not to forget Jehova and his teachings & I know that I am a good human being – I don;t feel that I have to associate myself 3 x’s a week with an organization that unfortunately I lost trust in due to some of it’s members. I am hoping Jehova understands my feelings = He who knows me inside out knows as well the hurt I have gone thru, yet, some of my still JW family continue to tell me this is not enough – it is never enough – my good heart and love for Jehova is not enough….I need to be part of the organization in order to be saved! I can just imagine the anguish MJ must have felt on that front alone and the poor thing, he felt it in many other fronts as well.
a I truly believe he was a JW and baptized witness, that despite assertions from MsKelly of otherwise. If he had not been one, his congregation’s body of elders would not have rounded him up and pretty much forced him to chose either the organization or Thriller; that kind of “rapprochement” is only used on baptized JW’s and not applied to casual attendants of the faith. Furthermore, had he not been a witness he would not have been required to write a letter to the body of elders to advise the congration of his intent to leave. One only had to do that if a baptized individual and only baptized individuals were required write advising the organization of their intent to leave. Personally, I thought MJ got a raw deal from the organization. I understand their responsability is to protect the congregation, but if so why not be fair and uniform in their treatment of famous JW’s? Serena Williams and Co. I believe breached strong JW protocol during the Olympics but as far as I know that were not forced to leave the organization…if anybody knows otherwise please let me know. I honestly think he was forced to leave when he did not want to – the organization was his sanity, his foundation and rock. He was already a sensitive soul and an abused child and the organization pretty much told him….sorry, but you are not good enough for us or for Jehova…..BEAT IT! In addition and as Die correctly stated his music was full of JW themes and visions and even a his videos – look at the Earth Song’s video – is straight out of a Watchtower Track Magazine vision of paradise. Once again, I hope and pray that the merciful One will look upon the weak in the dispersed flock on judgement day and send out his shepherd JC to find the “weak” lost ones like ourselves — maybe, just maybe then my wounds would be healed. Peace to all and I hope and encourage comments. Tks
It is sooo funny to run across people who have just a little knowledge of what they are talking about and get the facts all scrambled around…
Just a brief note in response to a couple of statements/questions you had virus head.
I believe the court awarded custody to Katherine. From what I have read she and Joe have not lived together for some years so his manipulative behavior will hopefully be ‘controlled’ with regard to their grandchildren.
It seems there is confusion regarding MJ’s status as a JW because of some choices made by individuals close to him coupled with a ‘hard line’ interpretation of ‘the rules’. I want to reassure you first of all that micro-policing is not done in the congregations regarding individuals choosing to associate with family members who are disfellowshipped. (Unless those individuals were treating the person like a spiritual ‘brother’ and basically publicizing it to the congregation the elders would not get involved) The standard is set high based on the patterns given in Scripture, but with regard to matters like this much is left up to individual conscience.
SO…. Yes, the family, including current JWs could likely had some association with him despite his being removed from the congregation.
AND…. A ‘JW’ funeral could have been given for him by an elder who chooses to do so. It would not be allowed at the Kingdom Hall, (which it wasn’t) and the congregation would not ’sponsor’ it. I have personally presided over 2 graveside funerals of individuals who were not Witnesses when I served as an elder. If an individual who was disfellowshipped for unrepentant actions showed some remorse and had stopped doing what they were disciplined for we were instructed to make our own ‘judgment call’…not based on how much money a person donated (tee hee…that one was funny).
So much for brief,
Take care everyone. May Jehovah (God) bless you in your search for Him. (Acts 17:24-28)
Reading the blogs from this site and some others over time helps me realize that, for the most part, the ex- Witnesses who ‘grind their axe’ could generally be described as ‘anti-organization’. In other words, they just don’t want others telling them what to do and do not want to be controlled ( At least by choice…nature controls us as does the US gov’t, etc). It just so happens that the ‘organization’ that they belonged to was Jehovah’s Witnesses. I believe it gives insight into their thinking and understanding of the EXTREME stance that is so often taken that the ‘organization’ in general (Brooklyn) somehow micromanages the lives of all JWs and involves itself in making even the most minute decisions. This is simply not the case. I would concede that in high profile cases (i.e. MJ) the branch is consulted more and the decision made by the local body may be influenced more by the counsel given by those in Brooklyn.
But, in general, to avoid having 1/2 of all JWs in Brooklyn policing and mainatining files on the the other 1/2, decisions are delegated locally and a general report is made to the branch for review to make sure things look right.
There is a silver lining about this discussion. You lament that this discussion does not hit on any issue of real importance to the world in general, but it does.
Recently there was a media firestorm in the East about a state wanting to dictate to the Catholic Church how it should appropriate its money ( Instead of hierarchy deciding, they wanted a panel made up of laity to decide on financial matters). Of course, the separation of Church and State and the current interpretation of the US Constitution is at stake. If the state wins, will the government choose to use the precendent to go further into dictating how church organizations govern themselves?
This issue comes up because you seem to agree with Silent Lambs and feel that Brooklyn should hand over all it’s judicial records to the ’state’ so that the ’state’ so the state can make sure it is internally ding everything right (In this case it would have to be Federal since the files would contain records from all states). This has long been the stance of the ‘Silent Lambs’ organization ( I agree with another bloggers’ reasoning that this organization should widen its focus from just JW if it wants to attack the real problem and protect all children from the gross crime of child abuse).
Here is why that won’t happen:
The records in Brooklyn are just a compilation of the records held by each individual congregation. Each congregation handles the matter locally and does what it is legally required to do by that state jurisdiction.
I can guarantee that any unresolved cases or questionable cases where a predator may not have been dealt with has been redirected to a local congregation to examine again ( I have personally spent countless hours researching and re-investigating and notifying congregations to be sure that all children in the congregations that could possibly come into contact with a sex offender would be protected). Since I was secretary of the congregation it was my job to maintain those files and I took it seriously (I can say without reservation that on a local level that had not always been the case with previous secretaries and with other congregation secretaries, especially in the past when NO ONE including government took the matter as seriously as they should and that most of the cases cited by Silent Lambs stem from. This is a case of person reprehensibility, not an organization determining policy to protect a known offender in its administration. I personally knew of 5 cases in our file, all of which were investigated and reported to the state with 4 going to prison and none currently wanting anything to do with JWs, while the other one that could not be substantiated left the organization for ‘harrassment’ (So much for a pedophile paradise).
I believe some states should get tougher and organizations like Silent Lambs would be wise to focus their efforts on changing local governments’ policies since JW and almost ALL organizations, religious and non-religious, will follow the law of their state about reporting. And I know each state has probably wrangled endlessly about how to legislate for the protection of children while trying not to strip too much individual freedoms away with ‘witch hunting’.
Reporting an allegation so the state can keep record of it when it is not required would be similar to reporting anything else not required that the state has not developed a system to track….useless. Personally I can’t tell you how many examples of the State of Oregon’s CPS and DHS falling all over itself and blundering case after case of child welfare due to MANY reasons including lack of communication between agencies and ‘record keeping’.
Congregationally, when an allegation is made and the State does not require reporting it is investigated thoroughly and taken seriously. If it cannot be proven that they have committed the crime the accusation is documented and put in that persons file. If they move, mention of it is made to the next congregation, who then will file it. If that person were to get close to another family with children, elders would do what they can to encourage the family to watch their children (which they should do anyway) without of course saying the person is a ’sex offender’ since they may not be and have not been convicted of the crime.
So while organizationally The branch does give direction about State requirements for reporting it leaves the burden of investigation, decision making and protection locally. SO, the State getting the files in Brooklyn would not do any good since they in turn would have to follow up with each local congregation (Which has already been to to the ‘t’).
It also means that since the organization has delegated much control locally, individuals can make mistakes or in some cases flagrantly ignore a problem, which has resulted in lawsuits against the organization since those individuals ‘represent’ the organization. (Tho’ now they are making sure cases involving child abuse are handled correctly by becoming more involved so that the local ‘buddy system’ does not unduly influence any decision, which was the main problem in the past).
This answers another beef you have that the PR wing will not answer anything about MJ. They won’t because the decision as to whether MJ is or isn’t a JW isn’t made at headquarters, but locally. If you want to know details you would have to ask the congregation who made any decision regarding Michael…..and of course you won’t.
So, the reasonable view is that since JWs open themselves to the public and are trusting (In some cases too trusting of each other) some individuals will be able to “slip in” (Jude 4) and cause trouble. They are dealt with, but not before doing their damage to children, to other people and to Jehovah’s & Christ’s reputation. And just as state and federal governments are continuing to refine their laws and policies to deal correctly with the matter so are JWs.
If you have something specific that you know about JW ‘policy’ that is ludicrous as opposed to other organizations and governments policies I am interested to hear about it.
Take care all,
Dave
Nicely said, Dave. The only problem with your explanation is that local cases are in fact under the direction of the Governing Body. Local elders are often loathe to make real decisions without approval and guidance from “the faithful and discreet slave” in Brooklyn. And – in fact – the governing policy with regard to child abuse, sexual abuse, and domestic abuse of any kind is this: There is a two-witness requirement without which not only will claims be ignored, but the claimants may themselves come under disciplinary action. Any form of “worldly” help is heavily discouraged (police, psychiatry, etc.). So the upshot is that these cases tend not to come up until the abusers come to the attention of the authorities in some other way. Sign up for any feed about JWs and you will soon see what those cases look like. Brooklyn has been tracking known pedophiles in the organization for many years now, and there have been a few attempts to get them to hand over their database, but nothing has yet worked. In addition, JWs provide free legal help for divorcing parents – if custody of the children is at stake, they would rather have the children stay with the JW parent, even if that is the abuser. Yes, I think that is ludicrous – and deeply unethical.
Your explanation about their not answering questions about MJ’s status is funny. Surely you don’t really believe that.
Dear virushead,
Of the 5 case I dealt with, we called the branch as instructed to determine what our states reporting requirements were. We were told that and reminded that we were not to instruct the victim or someone close to them to avoid reporting the matter to authorities. The only person we spoke to was a legal counsel…briefly. The we were left to investigate. 4 of the cases resulted in confession or enough circumstantial evidence to believe the accusation was true and it was immediately reported to the police. No governing body weighed in, in fact no one in authority weighed in on our decision. For Jehovah’s Witnesses, everything falls under the authority of the Governing Body…they give directions and it is left to others in authority to understand, apply and enforce. This is the same as it is in any group of human beings that is organized.
Yes, the two witness requirement or a confession (which can be hard because elders are not experts at ‘water boarding) is the standard to determine congregationally whether there is proof a person committed something wrong (Deut 17:6; Matt 18:16;1Tim 5:19;John 8:17). If the state requires reporting an accusation this is done also (Rom 13:1,2). I believe your real issue is with the Bible and its standards (which most states still emulate in their reporting laws), not with JW. If we didn’t believe that Scripture is the ultimate authority, then we would likely change our stance to avoid public criticism, but the Bible says it and it is reasonable, therefore we don’t see a need to go beyond it.
About the other issue you added about child custody cases. The branch WILL provide legal help to JWs who are in custody battles where the non-witness mate is MAKING THE JW PARENT’S RELIGION AN ISSUE. We were instructed as elders to make sure this was the case and to not get involved when this was not (Don’t believe Barabara Walters just because she is Barabara Walters…more any source of information for that matter). Everyone should check their sources before believing or spreading anything. If you were for profit you could be sued for libel. The deeply unethical part is on a non-believing mate who fights for custody by attacking the religion of a person as a reason for their unsuitability as a parent.
I do believe that about MJ. Your real source would be the congregation. I didn’t finish my sentence tho’. I meant to say ” of course yu won’t find the answer..because they won’t tell you any specifics about the case..tho they may tell you whether MJ is a JW or not, which I know he is not, but as some of the other disfellowshipped bloggers have said, they still ascribe to the tenants of the faith and believe themselves to be a JW more than anything else (Jehovah help them).
Regards,
Dave
Real quick,
What you said in the initial article was that the policies connected to dealing with child abuse were ludicrous..that was the subject I was interested in knowing more about…the other one you brought up that is not related to ABUSE I dealt with in my previous blog.
Thanks!
Hey virushead,
Just responding to the statements about a person who claims to be abused being ignored or even disciplined for going to the elders with an accusation. As I stated earlier, I only know the direction I received by general policy letter given to all elders which stated to take every accusation seriously and if no other proff could be found and the accused does not admit AND the state didn’t require us to report, we would file that accusation with the file. If another accusation came later, even if there was no other proof we could possible use the ‘pattern’ of accusations as proof and deal with it congregationally and probably consult the branch to determine if our State wanted to deal with multiple accusations for multiple situations. Regarding getting worldly help, again personal conscience is involved. We are discouraged from getting help from a ‘worldly’ source, but are not chastised for it. The victims I knew of got counseling and help from the state, and personally, when it comes to something as horrific as they went through I don’t know if I would have been that great of help to them emotionally…only to tell them that Jehovah knows and that he has already determined a day and assigned his Son to met out punishment for what the abuser did.
As far as recriminating being done against ones who try to make an accusation against an abuser…it depends on how they want to make the accusation. Do they make the accusation to the body of elders and know that the ‘two witness policy and state reporting requirements will be upheld or that they will do their best to examine the accused and get them to confess? If so, they would not be disciplined. If they publicly speak against the congregation or the organization..in essence apostasizing (being ‘against’).. they may be disciplined along the fashion of Titus 3:9-11. Besides, that would only effectively remove them from the organization they feel is so bad anyway…right?
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE LIKE IT, NOR WANT TO SEE AN ABUSER GO FREE AND POSSIBLY HURT SOMEONE ELSE…If that is the case, the person would be using his time and resources more effectively to change the state law instead of the ‘policy’ of a group of people that represents less than 1% of the population and, likewise less than 1% of the child abuse cases.
Regards,
Dave
I have had personal experience too – and that’s not what I saw happen. But maybe things have changed – maybe.
Here’s the latest news story…. http://www.seattlepi.com/national/408515_baby28.html?source=mypi
I believe you, and am sorry some idiot didn’t ‘follow directions’. In ten years of being an elder I personally witnessed an individual elder do or say something entirely stupid. The ones who take counsel and change stay serving, the others (and there have been several I dealt with) no longer serve (Thank goodness).
Yours,
David
Just read the article you linked to….absolutely horrific. What a loss for the families involved. Doubt she was a JW if she was living with a man for 7 years (Last names different).
Don’t know the mom’s story, when she became a JW and why she would take a daughter obviously living in sin door to door (Tho’ it is a quote and the person quoted could have a subjective view).
According to wikipedia .4-.6% of the US population has it…..so approximately 1.2 to 1.8 million people have that CRAZY and debilitating disease. Assuming those figures are right among Jehovah’s witnesses about 4-6000 have that disease.
The tragedy is horrific, schizophrenia causes people to do the most inhuman things, but please remember that it is a disease, not something that Jehovah’s Witnesses cause.
Here is a good website bout it :www.allaboutschizophrenia.com
If you are looking for reasons to criticize anybody you will find them…look at what people are saying of Barack Obama…socialist? …Funny.
Some other news about schizophrenia killings:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8173386.stm
Not sure what religion some are, it tends not to matter to the news unless it’s a ‘head turner’.
Regards
Proportionately, I think there are more psychiatric problems (especially ones that involve abuse/violence) among Jehovah’s Witnesses than most other groups. Here’s the story of the day…
http://www.wigantoday.net/wigannews/Man-jailed-for-sex-attack.5512451. jp
Good morning,
You are entitled to your opinion. Of course, you may be falling prey to the same ‘handing out stock answers’ that JW are accused of. I heard that one being circulated several years ago by critics of the ‘organization’. I think it’s an angle taken by individuals who are obsessed with self-justification for leaving a cause they still may believe in for the most part. I believe that conflict within them is why an ex-JW has a more profound struggle to ‘move on’, not so much because they have been coerced and controlled by a cult, but because so much of them is still loyal to the Bible-based doctrine they were taught when they leave (albeit an interpretation…a pretty sound one).
Also, I am still intrigued by another opinion you had that I haven’t seen a fact about. (I’ve read scanned letters before to prove a point about something, is there an untampered scan of a WT policy letter that shows a policy that is ‘laughable’. What abuse ‘policy’ of JWs is so ludicrous compared what other organizations and governments have developed? Personally, when I became an elder in 1997 I was given a book and a binder of policy letters for everything including a few dealing with abuse.
I read them carefully and feel I internalized the direction and intent. There have been many more letters lately as I believe everyone, including governments, are having to clarify how to handle this problem more clearly. I never read anything that resembled a policy of harboring and protecting criminals. I did see letters that gave more ambiguous direction, leaving a little more up to individual interpretation (The real problem). More recent policy letters are much more clear and outline what to do and say in more exact terms. IT IS CLEAR TO ME that there are obvious individual cases, before more CONTROL was exerted with detailed instructions, where individual elders arbitrarily made decisions that were foolish and showed gross disregard for victims….shame on them. Their actions misrepresent Jehovah’s Witnesses in general (2Peter 2:1,2). If they were sued, even jailed, GOOD! Maybe they’ll learn to take these matters more seriously (In my experience, it was the older elders who many times chaffed at the extra work load and changes that some of the policies made. And, at the time, I don’t believe they took them very seriously….I think they do now! If that is a result of many of the lawsuits..that can be a silver lining. They made their point. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ naivety and zeal for their reputation prevented them from acknowledging the problem and to change ambiguous policy letters to more clear cut ones).
Recently I gave a contract proposal to a prospective customer and they asked me “how defined is your sexual harassment policy in your organization”. Well, I had to look over my employee manual, which gave more ambiguous directions to employees about respect toward fellow employees and that harassment, abusive language etc wouldn’t be tolerated. I had to pay to update my business’ policy that clarified what sexual harassment is, how it is viewed, and especially a detailed procedure of how each case will be handled and what the punishments will be. In my little ‘organization’, I have had to become more vigilant regarding these matters as has every other organization….we live in different times, partly because people in general are getting worse and partly because naivety is less.
This brings up another funny conundrum. Many times, ones who want to ‘free’ JWs from what they feel is a ‘control group’ will attack the weakness of some of the ‘controls’ (policies). They do this to get someone who is not a deep thinker by nature to question what they haven’t questioned before, the policies of men. …..interesting.
Dave
Hmmm. You bring up some interesting points for me to ponder. I’ll respond in more depth later. For now, here is a couple of good summaries of what you’re attempting to deny:
http://www.exjws.net/sexabuse/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_child_sex_abuse
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness7.htm
I have not attempted to “deny” anything, just bring in a mitigating voice of reasonableness. It would be better if you would simply state what I am denying instead of refer to links.
Although..this is your blog and you can do what you want with it
I reviewed the links with interest, though. Especially the one with the scanned pages from the ‘ks93′ (elder’s manual). Except for a small percentage of material (usually interpretations, unreferenced material, and of course the individual who apparently wants to have sex with his ‘manual’) I think those links have been saying the same thing I have been blogging about regarding policy and procedure.
Can refer to something more specific and I will pull the whole article or recall info from a letter giving more direction to the elders than what the “rank and file” received in WT publications.
Regards,
Dave
Patience, Dave. I told you that there were points to ponder. I was pondering, thinking that you would like to be taken seriously. That was just a little bit of educational material for you to ponder, too, in case you were interested in the voices of those who have been silenced.
Now. About “deny” – I was unclear. I was referring back to the idea that the policy of JWs was laughable and you asked me for examples. I have first-person narratives, but if you’re really curious, you’ll google it I suppose. They are everywhere.
Think of it. A young person claims that an elder has molested her. Or a wife goes to the elders for help because her husband beats her. What is their advice? Honestly. What do they do? Advise them to press charges? Seek counseling? If you are true to your experiences, you know that this isn’t what happens. Not only from the position of authority, but even from the position of friendship, such “ones” are left stranded or even reviled. Is this loving?
I’m not sure that I understand the slant of your argument in the last comment. The qualities of authoritarian groups that can be labeled “mind-control” are all about creating an attitude where people are not allowed to question (not an attitude which would lead to a deepening of authentic faith). The common ground has to do with love and grace and community, not hours recorded in service for a corporate record. What happens to those people who give themselves in service their whole lives? Watchtower Jehovists don’t even take care of their own in their old age.
Why should people not question the traditions of men, even men in an organization who claim to be the voice of God’s will on earth? There are many such, and every prophet warned against them.
I have a full copy of a couple of different versions of the elder’s manual. I assume it’s been updated since (I hope so).
I guess what I’m really trying to call attention to here is that the rules and procedures lack a priority of importance. They are cold and heartless, and offer no real guidance to someone who is suffering. This is the only group I know of that has no capacity for pastoral care.
Is that such an unreasonable emphasis?
I am fascinated by this blog. I am a former Catholic turned former JW (Translation: kicked out of CCD so mom took me to the Kingdom Hall). I was baptized at 9 years of age, much to the chagrin of the then Circuit Overseer. I was disfellowshipped at the age of 20 for reasons that still make me laugh, and was reinstated once the elders I didn’t like were replaced. Since my reinstatement 23 years ago I have only been to the hall once, for my Mother’s memorial service.
I have seen, in my own congregation, a husband murder his wife, a second husband accused of murder but not convicted, and a pedophile case. Of the original group of teenagers in the congregation at the same time as I was, only 1 still attends to my knowledge.
I applaud those who believe they have found the truth. It is important to have a solid belief network. But I also understand the point of view of Virushead…the practices of the WTBS are very harmful to the mental well being of many in the organization. I feel the reason is this: the witnesses appeal to those who have lost hope in their lives. For whatever reasons they have, most newcomers are people who have been miserable failures at secular life. The promise of Rev 21:3,4 is a world anyone would want to live in, so for desperate folk it makes the “truth” an easy sell. The reason so many teenagers fall away isn’t rebellion…it’s because they have reached the age of reason and realize the sham being perpetrated on them.
As for “Dave the Elder”, I have only this to say. Back in my day, elders would NEVER entertain the thought of posting to a blog, or debating in any type of forum in public. I guess things have changed a great deal. Membership rolls must be declining. Hey, changing the rules worked for the Catholics, you might as well do it too. God (whatever his or her name may be) bless you.
Hi virushead,
I am sorry if I seemed impatient, you said you would ponder , but I did want to address the denial comment. I realize you have a life (by your pictures) as do I. Recently I have been catching up on an online math course I have been taking so I am online quite a bit. Please forgive my ‘manic’ blogging.
Thank you for clarifying the denial thing. I haven’t denied that there are, and that I have known, examples of elders mishandling things to the detriment of the flock, even in my own case. From my experience and research I found the REAL problem was a lackadaisical attitude toward instructions given on how to handle all cases of abuse on the part of individuals as well as the more important scriptural guidance, especially to love. I can only tell you what I know I have done or would have done if a sister came to me and said her husband was beating her, for example. I would ask for details, while being gentle and kind. If there were children, I would ask them what they knew, gently, carefully. Then ask the husband his side. If there was any reason to believe these things were true and felt the wife or children were in danger, I would get the help of other elders to help get her/them out of the situation, using resources the state provides if possible. I have dealt with some situations like that and would stand by my record.
I apologize for my comment about the ex-elder JW who was ‘flipping the bird’ on his book. Obviously there is some deep rooted pain and frustration associated with that gesture.
Regarding my slant. I was ‘digging’ at ones who are trying to help people out of organizations that control by trying to ‘open their eyes’ to how that group does not control its members enough by more strict controls…i.e regarding abuse.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that the common ground should be love, faith and community…out of which should stem any efforts toward works. (I have long waited for the day we will stop filling out those reports…for many reasons). When I WAS an elder ( For PCKnotte), I recall a C.O asking me how I felt about the spiritual condition of the congregation I was an elder in. My response was…I don’t see enough faith. I do believe JWs have the truth thing down pretty much, but I see a disheartening lack of spirit (John 4:24) at times. Many do judge their faithfulness and love for God and Christ more from the darn numbers on a piece of paper than from as you say REAL, GENUINE, AUTHENTIC FAITH. Personally, I have written the Governing Body about several things I have been thinking about and I express some sentiments to my wife and nothing has happened.
I ENCOURAGE questioning and believe that analytical thinking is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. My statement was more of a lament that every JW doesn’t wrestle with their own questions and develop a real faith, that does not produce fear when confronted with something different ( You know the ones…the argumentative and hyper-defensive)…I have, since I was a teenager. in the right format, questions are necessary. I don’t believe public questioning and criticism is always constructive, just as I don’t believe a child should question a parent’s authority ‘publicly’. They might find the response much colder and legalistic than if they asked and questioned more privately.
To reiterate, I do believe in questioning the traditions of men. I don’t believe Moses got it all right when leading the Israeites, for example. To privately question him and advise, even multiple times may have been the course of wisdom for Korah and his associates. Ultimately, the Israelites got to the right place even under his imperfect leadership.
I can understand that looking at the cold, legalistic rules in the flock book or letters can make it seem that the intent of the organizations’ leadership shows more concern for regulations and laws and protection of assets. That is why those things are not made available for everyone’s consumption. BUT, those legalities are defined for men with the presumption (An for good reason) that those men are already loving, faithful, loyal and compassionate. That is why the warning is given to not let our thinking get clouded when someone cries…it is assumed (rightfully) empathy will be there…they don’t have to specifically instruct in the manual “when someone cries, try to care”.
Regarding the previous blogger comment about the awful retainage record of JWs. A few years ago and MSN article ranked JWs as the wors at under 37% staying. I immediately pulled out a picture we took in 1988 of all the young ones in the KH (I was one of them)……yep, 33% left ’standing’. A large % were from ‘fringe’ families that demonstrated my frustration I mentioned earlier to a C.O….no REAL faith, just a somewhat blind loyalty and hypocrisy that those children likely learned from. Most of them went to drugs etc, including my brother, who was disfellowshipped and reminds me of many of the previous bloggers who are trying to get back. I don’t believe most leave because they think it’s a sham, they just can live up to the moral laws, mainly because their parents didn’t arm them with authentic faith and a genuine love for God, just a cursory knowledge that burns up under the tests of hormones and peer pressure (1 Cor 3:13).
I apologize for getting lengthy, I think it’s because I have the burden of proof.
Yours,
Dave
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think you must be a very good elder, and I wish there were more. My experience is that there is a very limited pool of possible candidates, and to assume they don’t have to be told to at least attempt to act in a caring way is…. optimistic. It’s not only the texts that are legalistic. I see the organization as a kind of modern-day branch of the Pharisees. Jesus would have been disfellowshipped.
On the issue of faith – faith based on fear doesn’t last, only faith in joy and love and kindness can survive. Since grace is never mentioned (”loving-kindness” is really a misleading translation) and individual paths and gifts are disregarded, I think it’s difficult for most people to develop loving relationships under the watchful guidance of the organization.
But I can tell that these are things that you have considered yourself, at least a little bit, and I don’t mean to put you in a defensive position of having the burden of proof.
One thing is odd, though, in what you’re saying here. I don’t ever recall even hearing about a situation where a child or woman could bring themselves to accuse someone in a public way – it’s hard even to imagine that they would have the courage. I’m talking about someone desperate enough to seek help from the elders. Think how disappointing that would be to hope and trust that they cared, only to discover that not only wouldn’t they help but that they protected the abuser. In case after case, this has been the narrative.
Sorry for the first text. This is the one I wanted to send. I’m not a nativ English so I try my best to be correct.
All the best, Anna
Once upon a time, a boy was born with an ordinary talent. His father had only one thing in his mind, to get his son to succeed and be the best. His mother had only one thing in her mind, to get his son to be saved and a believer in her faith.
This boy’s childhood was mostly to satisfy what his father wanted him to do on stage while he tried to live up to his mother’s religious beliefs on how to live, behave and look. But neither the father nor mother thought he did enough either on stage or as a believer.
The boy grew up and became increasingly a brilliant star on the music sky. His father was still not satisfied despite the fact that his son won several awards in the music industry. While expression his talent in music his mothers religion saw the son as “apostate” and he was excluded from their faith because of the music and art he created and for the dress and the hair clippers he chose to have.
As his celebrity grew also his doubts grew. Could his father love him now that he was the world’s most famous artist? And could mom love him and could he please her God even if he if he still wanted to continue to create his music?
The boy, now a man, remembered his childhood and all he saw was pleasing his father with good performances and pleasing mother with trying to for fill her believes of he preaching of the word. As he remembered he didn’t have any real childhood as for playing as kids normally do. When he tries to recapture his childhood as an adult the nearby and the grown up pointed finger to him and said: “this man is perverted and sick.”
Like many great artists the little boy died a premature death.
At his funeral his father was mostly concerned about creating a new record company and his mother most worried that the funeral was to “worldly” and not the way she had wanted it in the spirit of her religion.
Perhaps we all, together with his parents owe this man an apology. Forgive us for not seeing your needs, forgive us for putting worldly and spiritually need before seeing you as a human being. Forgive us for forgetting this while you were a child and even as you had grown up as an adult putting our wants of what a life should be before looking at your needs.
And most of all forgive us for excluding you from something that you ought not to be excluded from, namely the right to be a human.
Anna – I deleted your first post and posted the second one. Yes, the mixture of a view of perfection combined with physical and emotional abuse and the conflicting demands of one view of spirituality and the fantasies of celebrity had a tragic effect on Michael’s psychology. He was an amazing talent, and I guess I’m still glad that he had that to focus upon despite all the difficulties that his upbringing created in him. What resonates most in your comment for me is the end – the right to be human. I can’t help but feel (as a bit of an eclectic mystic) that the cosmos celebrates in our individual contributions to the ongoing story of the universe.
Best Virus Head, thank you for letting me publish my thoughts on your website.
To be honest, I am a little surprised that I have a need to express myself about Michael Jackson. I am so old that I have grown up with his music as so many others in the world but I was not aware of his background in JW that came as a surprise for me.
I myself had some very upsetting years in my teenage in the JW:s, but I have managed to take me out of the organization (but note I do not have anything against religion or Christianity). In my case, I was very good in school and had as we call it over here in Sweden ”a read head”. Sadly I had to fight for my studies and I was alerted to worldly knowledge and to learn that university was a tool of Satan. You have no idea what struggles I endured, and how out frozen in the cold I was because I selected the studies at the university instead of in the organization.
I think it might be that experience that made me so upset while hearing that Michael also was a JW in his teenage. Although there are over 20 years ago all this happened to me, the memories comes back and I understand what hard times this talented artist must have had to challenge all the requirements and desires that were on him.
All I can say is that I hope this tragic life and dead of an great musician and artist lead to something good within the Christianity society. And that we understand that you can not force a belief in a child or use threats or fears. It must be an independent decision by an adult and we couldn’t say that all outside the organisation is of Satan because there are after all at least sometimes a wonderful world we live in :=)
Anna – Will you tell me why you think that university is a tool of Satan?
No, Virushead, sorry if I was unclear, I never looked upon University as Satan but that was exactly was I was told by elders in my assembly. They wanted me to put aside my heart’s desire, the study of literature, because of the religion’s ban on higher education for their members. Hence, evangelistic activities took priority over education. I heeded their rules as to choice of friends, only Jehovah’s Witnesses, and choice of a marriage mate, only one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. And for that I was later, disfellowshipped, not because of misbehaviour from my side, but for being with people in the outside world and not attending on all meetings and doing my correct time of Witness preaching. All this was over twenty years ago and things may have changed in the organisation in attitudes of higher studies? But suddenly when all this with Michael in the media and me being aware of his JW background all my memoires came back. How much grief and insecurities I felt when I choose to leave JW for studies at the University it was a terrible experience not to speak of all JW friends who turned their head from me when I met them on the street…
It just struck me that Michael must have had the same dwellings as all of us ex witnesses? Just so sad he didn’t speak out loud, it might have made him feel he wasn’t alone?
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